Vinegar

[coloradoclyde]

Indians and Colonists smoked Great Mullein because it was believed to remedy respiratory complaints, Maybe it did not work for that but the euphoria associated with the smoke may have kept the belief alive.

I know of no "euphoria" associated with smoking mullein.

But creosote was smoked to treat whooping cough as late as the 1960's

 

[coloradoclyde]

The idea of germ theory started long before Pasteur and Koch (Hieronymus Fracastorius)....Milk was being pasteurized in the 1700's... and German brewers clearly knew what yeast was and how to use it by the time Pasteur was born.....Pasteur and others just get credit for bringing it all together and convincing everyone.

 

[Black Hand]

We know vinegar was put into the drinking water. To make it potable. As opposed to non-potable water.

It is now very clear that the definition of potable water is unclear to you.

Potable water: Drinking water, also known as potable water or improved drinking water, is water that is safe to drink or to use for food preparation, without risk of health problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_water

Non-potable water: Non-potable water is water that is unsafe for human consumption. It does not have the safe qualities of drinking water, but can still be used for other purposes. https://www.reference.com/science/non-potable-water-1f3f0ac74dd4187f

Vinegar still does nothing to make water potable.

I'm afraid I really can't make it any clearer...

 

[Black Hand]

Indians and Colonists smoked Great Mullein because it was believed to remedy respiratory complaints, Maybe it did not work for that but the euphoria associated with the smoke may have kept the belief alive.

I know of no "euphoria" associated with smoking mullein.

But creosote was smoked to treat whooping cough as late as the 1960's

Smoking Mullein causes no euphoria but is a known Native American treatment for respiratory ailments.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Folks around here have started growing it. It was also a prime ingredient in the "alternative weed" sold many places. Found a few references like this:
"As a Sedative or Legal High: Mullein leaves have a mild sedative and narcotic properties. When smoked or added to teas, they can produce a mild, legal high."

A few years ago, I found a guy picking the stuff in my pasture. When i questioned what he was about, he said Mullein is $7 a quarter oz dried. He was open about using it to get a slight high. I now see small patches of the stuff in flower beds in some back yards.

My copy of edible plants of Eastern North America was lost in a fire, but had a write up about Mullein and made some reference to narcotic effect. It said the same about Sassfrass and that is certainly true.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I don't doubt what you're saying....just never heard if it making you "high"....stuff grows like a weed It's everywhere. I remember my grandpa telling about smoking it when he was sick... :idunno:
I'd be to worried that somebody sprayed it with weed killer if it wasn't growing in my yard...

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Blackhand, you are stuck viewing things in terms of 21st century black and white ideas of water safety. Those ideas do not apply when vinegar was aded to make water "more potable" Your alleged definition does not even permit something to be better than no precautions.

According to Michael Lee Lanning’s The American Revolution 100: The People, Battles, and Events of the American Revolution, the American soldiers usually received most of their rations, at least in the early days of the war. These included:

1 lb. beef, or 3/4 lb. pork, or 1 lb. salt fish, per day; 1 lb. bread or flour, per day; 3 pints of peas or beans per week, or vegetable equivalent; 1 half pint of rice, one pint of Indian meal, per man, per week; 1 quart of spruce beer or cider per man per day, or nine gallons of molasses, per company of 100 men per week; 3 lbs. of candles to 100 men per week, for guards; 24 lbs. soft, or 8 lbs. hard soap, for 100 men per week.

One unofficial ration was vinegar that made water secured from nearby creeks, rivers, and lakes more potable and added flavor to food. Vinegar’s antiseptic properties also proved beneficial.

"more potable" can only mean safer than before vinegar, as if there were degrees of potability. Further some suggested the vinegar was only to improve flavor however, if that were the case, , the vinegar would not be said to be added to make water more potable but "more palatable."

They believed adding vinegar to water made it "safer" to some degree. We know today, that vinegar does kill some microbes and organisms, even if not all. Even if it would not render the water absolutely "safe" under 21st century standards, there is still some slight scientific evidence supporting their belief that the water became "safer".

 

[zimmerstutzen]

just never heard if it making you "high"

A few folks here have badly burned their lungs trying to smoke valerian root. What some will do for a chemically induced high is tragic.

 

[Black Hand]

One unofficial ration was vinegar that made water secured from nearby creeks, rivers, and lakes more potable and added flavor to food. Vinegar’s antiseptic properties also proved beneficial.

"more potable" can only mean safer than before vinegar, as if there were degrees of potability. Further some suggested the vinegar was only to improve flavor however, if that were the case, , the vinegar would not be said to be added to make water more potable but "more palatable."

They believed adding vinegar to water made it "safer" to some degree. We know today, that vinegar does kill some microbes and organisms, even if not all. Even if it would not render the water absolutely "safe" under 21st century standards, there is still some slight scientific evidence supporting their belief that the water became "safer".

As I said, this appears to be one of those things that someone pulled out of their nether-region without any proof. I would still like to see a period quote making this claim.

As previously mentioned - a little safer is in this case much like being kinda pregnant. Either you are or you aren't - there is no in-between. This isn't a Schroedinger's cat situation. Either the water is safe to drink or it isn't - there is NO middle ground.

 

[coloradoclyde]

you are stuck viewing things in terms of 21st century black and white ideas of water safety.

Considering the millions of people who died from outbreaks of water born diseases in the 18th and 19th centuries.....I'm staying in the 21st century....The idea of dying of the "bloody Flux" in an age with out toilet paper, is unappealing.... :shocked2:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Again, blind adherence to 21st century standards. Pregnancy is not a matter of degree and your analogy is irrational. Are auto accident injuries less severe in general because of seat belts as compared to before seat belts? Of course automobiles are are "safer" with seat belts. But that doesn't mean you can't be killed in an auto accident.

interesting how you wanted a citation to some authority other than a professor I knew, and when you are provided, suddenly, a written authority, vastly more informed about a revolutionary war soldier's life than you and I, and it is not good enough.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Either the water is safe to drink or it isn't - there is NO middle ground. Totally inapplicable to the life of a revolutionary war soldier. There was only unsafe untreated water. A treatment of sorts with vinegar, rendered it less unsafe, ie safer. There was no safe water per 21st century standards. Only degrees of unsafe and not quite as unsafe.

 

[Black Hand]

Again, blind adherence to 21st century standards. Pregnancy is not a matter of degree and your analogy is irrational. Are auto accident injuries less severe in general because of seat belts as compared to before seat belts? Of course automobiles are are "safer" with seat belts. But that doesn't mean you can't be killed in an auto accident.

interesting how you wanted a citation to some authority other than a professor I knew, and when you are provided, suddenly, a written authority, vastly more informed about a revolutionary war soldier's life than you and I, and it is not good enough.

The quote you provide is interesting, but the evidence which the author used to make his claim is lacking. Anyone can hypothesize, but in order for the hypothesis to be proven, it must be backed by evidence. I have yet to see evidence - the musings of the writer are not sufficient. As an example, there are people today that claim the world is flat - the evidence doesn't support their claim, but they are quite convinced and very vocal with their claim (and there are many more - Vaccines immediately come to mind). EVIDENCE.

Safe or not safe to drink - nothing in the middle really exists (the pregnancy analogy works quite well). Vinegar was a flavorant with (at best) minimal effects on water safety. But as I mentioned, a minimal effect essentially amounts to zero effect due to the capacity for bacteria and protozoa to infect and divide rapidly after ingestion, thereby rendering any effect of the vinegar moot...

 

[George]

This discussion reminds me of those old bare-knuckle fights which went on for a hundred rounds, until one adversary couldn't toe the line.

Why doesn't someone post a comment from the day which shows they at least had the idea that vinegar would make the water safe/safer. That would be a knockout punch. Maybe. Without that, I'm afraid we are doomed. :grin:

Spence

 

[Black Hand]

That is what I've been asking be provided for a while now...

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Wish I had such a source. What I have are two people who know more about soldier's life in the period than nearly all of us. So far that beats any thing posted. It is kind of like the remark that coffee tastes better when the latrines are down stream.

 

[coloradoclyde]

You're basing your position on an anecdotal colloquial juxtaposition ?... :shocked2:

 

[George]

Well, without primary accounts we are stuck with speculation. Might be some high quality speculation by people in the know, might be absolutely correct, but expert speculation is still speculation.

Gentlemen, toe the line.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

It does make for colorful story telling though.... :grin:

 

[Kansas Jake]

I grew up in a rural area in the 1950's. All the farms had domestic wells usually with a windmill or pumpjack. They were usually next to the barn or livestock pens. Most pumped water to a cistern with some sort of pressure pump to supply water to the house etc. Every few years the cistern was "cleaned" to remove the rodents, bugs, and reptiles who made their way into the cistern and died. Was the water safe by todays standards. Probably not, but I don't know of anyone who died from drinking it either.

Water safety even today is on a continuum. From totally safe to it will kill you. It still amazes me the number of people who only drink bottled water. I can understand if you have very poor quality water (taste), but most communities have very safe water. I go to the faucet for my water. If I'm at someones farm, I'll drink their tap water.

I like Spence's critique.