violin varnish finishes

[mattybock]

I had a look at some wood working reference books for luthiers (people who make guitars, violins, etc.) and the finishes they use on those instruments is just amazing.

I suppose if they handle is through years of sweat and being banged about, then they must be worth consideration for gun stocks.

Has any one used any musical instrument finishes on their guns before, and if so, what was you evaluation of it?

ps- for anyone who wants the resources, go to google, type in 'archives.org'. From here you'll be guided to an archive website full of public domain books from 1790 up to about 1965.

Type in violin, luthier, or rifle and have a look. I'm in the middle of a wonderful book about the 1898 krag. A modern gun, but hey- free old guns books!

You can't beat that!

 

[Len Graves]

Musical instruments are usually finished with varnish which is put on in several layers. This may work on firearms,but in the thickness used on violins(etc.) it will chip and crack with the hard use. Also the old masters used colored varnish instead of staining the wood. If you are doing a wall hanger or show piece this finish would be fine. For a shooter I think I would stick with the more traditional oil type finishes. I learned about finishes from my father who made and repaired musical instruments. This is of course my opinion on this matter, and you of course may feel free to try anything you wish. If you find I am wrong please correct me. I am open to different methods. Good luck

 

[LaBonte]

Actually most pre-1850 era (and even most after that) American longrifles were varnished not oiled. While the following info is a bit dated (Eric has revised his method over time) it explains the two types of varnish used on gunstocks http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol5no2/articles/mbo52-1.shtml

As for how they hold up - I have been using the linseed oil based varnish for the last 40 years on all my woodwork, stocks, knife and hawk handles, etc, and with a bit of easy upkeep my gear is well used but not abused.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Wow! :shocked2:
You may have opened the box too far.
You think our ml discussions are controversial? No way compared to the debates over varnishes used on violins. Stradivarios violins, reportedly, used a varnish made of gum arabic, honey and egg whites. Some 'experts' claim the varnish is what gives his violins their unmatched tone. His violins, btw, go back to about 1680.

 

[fatboy]

Labonte are you making your own oil varnish ?

 

[LaBonte]

Yes and no - I used to do it all from scratch using pure flaxseeed oil (the best quality linseed oil available) as the base and boiling it.
I now start with Tried and True Oil Varnish and add more rosin/pitch to my liking (The T & T is pretty good as is but IMO it's a bit too soft for this usage) and then add lead as the dryer.
When finishing I use a combination of period types, shellac as the sealer, followed by the linseed oil based varnish. The two "seal" in different ways and by combining them you get the best overall finish.

 

[Len Graves]

Have you used spirit varnish? I understand some musical instruments makers used this type of varnish also. I has been said that Stradivari used a combination of the two,( gum and spirit) and that the two will not mix ( perhaps the egg whites let it combine).

 

[LaBonte]

Have you used spirit varnish? I understand some musical instruments makers used this type of varnish also. I has been said that Stradivari used a combination of the two,( gum and spirit) and that the two will not mix ( perhaps the egg whites let it combine).

Nope - and while there are things in common between the violin varnishes and the gun stock varnishes, the end usage is different and variations in the actual finish are many.....

 

[Len Graves]

I agree. There are too many really good stock finishes on the market today to mess with what ole Antonio put on his fiddles. I have been using Minwax rub on poly with good results and good ol LMF stock finish also. There might be stuff in those old formulas that are poison, might be why none of those old viol makers are alive today.

 

[Birddog6]

I rebuilt an old fiddle of my dads back in ? 1978 I guess. I went to a master repairman, he was an old man in Col. OH named Rickmon ? or Richmond, he repaired violins, cellos, etc. his whole life & was extremely well known at that time. He was in his 80s then I think. He told me how to repair it & finish it & etc, quite a knowledgeable ol gent & extremely talented.

I received some finish from him he called Spiritshellac, ( it actually had a German name on the label, but I cannot recall the name & also could not pronounce it ) in a small dark brown bottle & was told to keep it out of the sunlight & sealed tightly.
Was instructed to apply very thin coats on the wood & rub it down & apply another coat, repeat til the color you want is obtained. Very tedious, as if your brush strokes overlap you have a dark line/stripe at the overlap. Also bought 2 very small fine hared flat brushes, one being about 1/8" wide & the other about 3/8" & cost me $20. ea then. The finish came in 1 oz bottles & cost me $ 40. for 1 oz. in 1978. Kept it sealed well between applications, as it would evaporate & change the thickness of it & color.
Guestimating the thinness of it & how much it took to do a violin, I would guestimate it would
take 8+ oz to do a rifle & get it dark.... which would make it cost prohibitive even then, for me.

Also, as allot of musical instruments are, it could not be subjected to extreme temp changes. If you had it outside in the cold winter, and came inside, the finish would spider crack onto a million spiderwebs & ruin months of work on a finish.

Definitely not a finish I would want to use on a rifle.

Keith Lisle

 

[Len Graves]

What you are saying in kind of jogging my memory I remember the spirit shellac because I liked the smell. He got that in powder form (flakes) and mixed it himself he then put the color into this and would put it on with a brush and paint on the highlights. It would then be finished over with a gum varnish (several coats sanded in between coats)and then rubbed with rotten stone and mineral oil till it shined like glass. But like you said this finish didn't like temp or moisture changes. Not just right for a gun finish. Possibly the method of application rather than the materials used.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Choosing a finish for a wood musical instrument, and for a gun stock should not involve the same considerations.

For a gunstock finish, we mainly are looking for a coating to prevent absorption of moisture by the wood, to give the stock stability.

A wooden musical instrument is looking for a coating that will preserve the dried, hard condition of the wood s that its tone and " Voice" are enhanced. Various shellacs and varnishes were formulated to use on instruments. Oil-based finishes were found to be better for use on gunstocks. The oil finishes allow the wood to breath in and out moisture slowly. The Shellacs and varnishes left a hard coating that was impregnable to water on the OUTSIDE of the instrument. Its a rare violin that is finished both inside and out, and they are not the best sounding instruments.( The same can be said about all instruments, made of wood, including all string instruments, from Ukukeles to Grand pianos, and even the Reed instruments. [ In the finest Grand pianos, the wood sounding boards are actually left out in the weather to crack. The splits are then filled with wedges of wood and the board is left out to weather some more!]

More than 20 years ago, now, professor in Texas analyzed pieces of Stradivarius instruments( They get accidentally damaged like everything else) to determine what the "Secret finish" was that gave the violins such a unique sound. He was a Chemistry Professor, if memory serves me well. After years of study, even using an electron microscope, he found that there was NOTHING unique about the finish used by Stradivarius.

Instead he found that there WAS a difference in the wood cells of these instruments. He finally chased this down to the fact that the Cremona, Italy, instrument and furniture makers bought the wood from warehouses on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, where the wood was cured slowly exposed to salt water air.

The salt from the air broke down the peptides inside the cells, leaving the individual cells hollow. This condition allows the sounds to resonate within the wood and gives the Strads their unique high pitched tones.

When I read about the professor, he had perfected a process to age wood to replicate the Stradivarius sound, had actually made several violins with his process, and had loaned them to Concert masters, and violin soloists to use instead of their Stradivari instruments. He also had applied for a patent to protect his invention( Process). His instruments were well received, with several experts claiming they could not tell the difference in the sound of his violins and the real Strads.

The " word" has it that most of the remaining Stradivari instruments are deteriorating, and loosing their unique sound. The worst thing done to them was putting them in temperature and humidity controlled display cases, and not using them! Those in private hands that are being played are in better shape than the "closet queens". The professor's process will have arrived in sufficient time to produce NEW wood string instruments with that famous sound. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Goldhunter]

Actually most pre-1850 era (and even most after that) American longrifles were varnished not oiled. While the following info is a bit dated (Eric has revised his method over time) it explains the two types of varnish used on gunstocks http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol5no2/articles/mbo52-1.shtml

FWIW, I've used the Seedlac Violin Varnish detailed out by Kettenburg in the above link on two projects; my Lehigh and my pistol. It dries QUICK. I tried his method of applying and it doesn't quite work for me. But that's likely because my end product didn't turn out exactly like his may. :idunno: I used it both as a thinned sealer and a thicker "finish". I do like the color it gave the wood.

I put a few hand rubbed oil finishes over both. As noted in the article, spirit varnishes can break down under continuous exposure to solvents. I don't use solvents to clean them other than the soap in the water. But I have rubbed a few oil coats over the varnish to help ward against this. But if the varnish does crack with use/age, I'm good with that. :grin: I built them for me to use.

 

[StevenHawken]

More than 20 years ago, now, professor in Texas analyzed pieces of Stradivarius instruments( They get accidentally damaged like everything else) to determine what the "Secret finish" was that gave the violins such a unique sound. He was a Chemistry Professor, if memory serves me well. After years of study, even using an electron microscope, he found that there was NOTHING unique about the finish used by Stradivarius.

Instead he found that there WAS a difference in the wood cells of these instruments. He finally chased this down to the fact that the Cremona, Italy, instrument and furniture makers bought the wood from warehouses on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, where the wood was cured slowly exposed to salt water air.

The salt from the air broke down the peptides inside the cells, leaving the individual cells hollow. This condition allows the sounds to resonate within the wood and gives the Strads their unique high pitched tones.

When I read about the professor, he had perfected a process to age wood to replicate the Stradivarius sound, had actually made several violins with his process, and had loaned them to Concert masters, and violin soloists to use instead of their Stradivari instruments. He also had applied for a patent to protect his invention( Process). His instruments were well received, with several experts claiming they could not tell the difference in the sound of his violins and the real Strads.

That sounds like Dr. Joseph Nagyvary. What you speak of is what I believe regarding Strad's violins, there was no "secret". Nagyvary has since come up with some more outlandinsh and loony ideas. He also doesn't make violins himself, a Chinese builder makes them for him.

I agree violins and guns are two different ball games. Violins are meant for the concert hall, rifles for the damp forest on a hunt. As someone who has made violins I would not use the same finish if I made a rifle, there are other ways to "pop" the grains on a highly figured maple stock.