Good point Jethro. I never have used substitutes so I forget to toss that in.
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volume/weight/volume
- Thread starter George
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Let me try to add a little perspective using the bathroom scale analogy.
1st you get professionally weighed on a 100% accurate scale. It says you weigh 200 pounds.
On your way home you stop and buy a real fancy new bathroom scale that can be calibrated precisely and will never be knocked out of calibration no matter what. You take it home and calibrate it to where it says 200 pounds when you step on it.
This equates to a custom built antler powder measure.
The very same day, your wife stopped off at CheapStuff and just so happened to buy a brand new pre-calibrated bathroom scale. It was on sale so can't be returned due to store policy. It cannot be re-calibrated. You step on it and it says you weigh 210! Or maybe 190. Doesn't matter. The point is that it reads differently than your true weight, consistently.
This equates to a store-bought brass pre-marked powder measure.
1st you get professionally weighed on a 100% accurate scale. It says you weigh 200 pounds.
On your way home you stop and buy a real fancy new bathroom scale that can be calibrated precisely and will never be knocked out of calibration no matter what. You take it home and calibrate it to where it says 200 pounds when you step on it.
This equates to a custom built antler powder measure.
The very same day, your wife stopped off at CheapStuff and just so happened to buy a brand new pre-calibrated bathroom scale. It was on sale so can't be returned due to store policy. It cannot be re-calibrated. You step on it and it says you weigh 210! Or maybe 190. Doesn't matter. The point is that it reads differently than your true weight, consistently.
This equates to a store-bought brass pre-marked powder measure.
Yeah I get it,, I did from the beginning.
I'm just trying to figure out why there's this effort to confuse new folks (again).
It always happens when someone with a CF loading background begins ML and can't grasp why the volume measure they just bought doesn't weigh the same.
It's really all moot, everyone needs to work a load for their own components, right?
whether they do it with a weighed measure then make their own volume measure to match, or use an adjustable measure and set it the same,, the charge they need will be the best for that combo.
I just don't want folks to get the idea they can go out and buy an adjustable measure set it at 70 and expect that to equal 70 by weight,, it may,, but only on rare occasion.
I'm just trying to figure out why there's this effort to confuse new folks (again).
It always happens when someone with a CF loading background begins ML and can't grasp why the volume measure they just bought doesn't weigh the same.
It's really all moot, everyone needs to work a load for their own components, right?
whether they do it with a weighed measure then make their own volume measure to match, or use an adjustable measure and set it the same,, the charge they need will be the best for that combo.
I just don't want folks to get the idea they can go out and buy an adjustable measure set it at 70 and expect that to equal 70 by weight,, it may,, but only on rare occasion.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
In 1970 my Dad completed a .40 cal percussion rifle with parts largely from Golden Age Arms in Worthington, Ohio. I finished the brass castings, and did the sheet brass cutouts. All accessories were from either Golden Age or OGCA shows.
The powder measure is adjustable brass, with a hinged widemouth funnel. Made by C. 'Doc' Haddaway. Louisville, KY It measures 50 gr. 3F Goex by weight. The largemouth funnel is just the ticket for smaller caliber rifle use.
Several years ago (1978) I got a similar measure, sans funnel. It also throws a 50 gr. charge. It's in a range bag I use primarily for percussion rifles.
Just a few years ago, I wanted another measure, this time with a swing-away spigot, primarily to use with cap & ball revolvers. From Ampco, it throws a 50 gr. charge, same as the original 'Doc' Haddaway measure. I was impressed that all 3, from 3 entirely separate manufacturers over several decades of manufacture, all measured the same.
Last measure was from Traditions, made in India, and larger diameter with higher capacity to use with my .54 cal and .62 cal's. It fits a loop on thebag I carry with one of my powder horns. After minimal filing to reduce capacity from almost 52 gr., it now also measures 50 grains 3F Goex.
I always use the old 'Doc' Haddaway measure as my standard for the rest of my hand-made measures, although I could easily have used any of the other 3.
It was a surprise that 3 of the 4 all measured the same, and that the newest "cheap knockoff" was as close as it was even before fine tuning.
I use the newest / higher capacity measure also for 2F and haven't checked actual weight; the fact that all throw a uniform charge is more important.
The powder measure is adjustable brass, with a hinged widemouth funnel. Made by C. 'Doc' Haddaway. Louisville, KY It measures 50 gr. 3F Goex by weight. The largemouth funnel is just the ticket for smaller caliber rifle use.
Several years ago (1978) I got a similar measure, sans funnel. It also throws a 50 gr. charge. It's in a range bag I use primarily for percussion rifles.
Just a few years ago, I wanted another measure, this time with a swing-away spigot, primarily to use with cap & ball revolvers. From Ampco, it throws a 50 gr. charge, same as the original 'Doc' Haddaway measure. I was impressed that all 3, from 3 entirely separate manufacturers over several decades of manufacture, all measured the same.
Last measure was from Traditions, made in India, and larger diameter with higher capacity to use with my .54 cal and .62 cal's. It fits a loop on thebag I carry with one of my powder horns. After minimal filing to reduce capacity from almost 52 gr., it now also measures 50 grains 3F Goex.
I always use the old 'Doc' Haddaway measure as my standard for the rest of my hand-made measures, although I could easily have used any of the other 3.
It was a surprise that 3 of the 4 all measured the same, and that the newest "cheap knockoff" was as close as it was even before fine tuning.
I use the newest / higher capacity measure also for 2F and haven't checked actual weight; the fact that all throw a uniform charge is more important.
I hear that. The first adjustable brass measure I bought when I started in BP threw 130 grains when set for 110.necchi said:
My point has nothing to do with the quality and accuracy of the measures, but the ideal, assuming the measures and the scale both always give perfect measures. Never has happened, never will, but it's the physics behind the practice we use in most of our shooting, I assume.
Think about my pictures, that measure made to hold exactly 70 grains. If I decide to load my gun by volume, not weight, and I fill that measure, dump it down bore, how much did I load? The answer is obvious, of course, because the volume and weight of powder are exactly matched, just as they will always be with a properly made volume measure.
We both know that in spite of my best efforts I cannot really make that measure drop exactly 70 grains every time, but that has to do with my shaky hands and dim eyes, so that I fail to do it right, not because the idea behind it is wrong.
Spence
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Thank you for an interesting conversation. I now have a scale and will be checking all my powder measures.
I did that for all my measures and was not impressed with their accuracy. Most were close, but one was pretty far off so that I retired it. They tend to have progressive and cumulative errors, not far off on the low end of the scale, but getting worse as you measure larger charges.Flintlock58 said:
One thing I figured out is that most of mine were apparently calibrated for FFg. They measure FFg more accurately than FFFg.
The errors are mostly on the high side, so the measure drops more than it say it is. Fortunately, most of the errors are just a few grains, not enough to be dangerous or even to change the trajectories enough to notice.
Spence
I thought this was much ado about nothing and started with half of the point so was undoubtedly going to confuse people further. Maybe the issue and/or the actual root of the controversy was confusing the OP or he is too close to it? I dunno...
What I do know is that when you see horn tip powder measures for sale by sutlers they tell you the weight of black powder (yes, by volume) they are meant to cast but not of WHICH powder (read: grain). Of course they really shouldn't have to. Everyone in the hobby is supposed to know pretty much which powder is supposed to be used* and arguably, except here in these forums, does it seems to me.
Here it is always a debate which has devolved into smokeless powder being OK in ROA's (it's NOT) and 4F to 1-1/2F being fine from every .31 revolver through every .75 musket, whatever isn't killing someone making them stronger, and oddly vocal. And so...
...without even introducing drams, this volume/weight thing will continue to befuddle some shooters as "pressure" seems to many Britons.
*< .45 rifles are comparatively uncommon and the size of the charge itself suggests what bore it will be used in.
What I do know is that when you see horn tip powder measures for sale by sutlers they tell you the weight of black powder (yes, by volume) they are meant to cast but not of WHICH powder (read: grain). Of course they really shouldn't have to. Everyone in the hobby is supposed to know pretty much which powder is supposed to be used* and arguably, except here in these forums, does it seems to me.
Here it is always a debate which has devolved into smokeless powder being OK in ROA's (it's NOT) and 4F to 1-1/2F being fine from every .31 revolver through every .75 musket, whatever isn't killing someone making them stronger, and oddly vocal. And so...
...without even introducing drams, this volume/weight thing will continue to befuddle some shooters as "pressure" seems to many Britons.
*< .45 rifles are comparatively uncommon and the size of the charge itself suggests what bore it will be used in.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
I largely agree with the "Much ado about nothing..."
Rather than spend range time practicing and becoming proficient with a rifle, many shooters have a propensity to overanalyse their components: weighing balls, micrometer measurements for ball and patch thickness, scale weight for powder. This is fine for modern cartridge firearms, but the beauty of black powder is that it is less sensitive to weight/volume measurement variations than smokeless technology.
If I want to plink bottlecaps at 200 yards, I reach for a well-tuned .22-250 & handloads. If I want to bust grapefruit or quart milk jugs filled with water at 100 yards, I can be successful by picking up the next RB that falls out of the bag & loading the flintlock with powder from a brass measure. No further fuss is needed, just load, fire & destroy the target. A grapefruit is no match for a .54 cal RB, & neither is a frozen quart of water on a 120º summer day. Both are impressive to the shooter at the next bench who has agonized over his weighed, miked and tweaked handloaded cartridges, yet is having a bad shooting day.
Step back from the digital scale & micrometer, and go shoot - develop your skill rather than blame for imprecise measurements & weights.
Rather than spend range time practicing and becoming proficient with a rifle, many shooters have a propensity to overanalyse their components: weighing balls, micrometer measurements for ball and patch thickness, scale weight for powder. This is fine for modern cartridge firearms, but the beauty of black powder is that it is less sensitive to weight/volume measurement variations than smokeless technology.
If I want to plink bottlecaps at 200 yards, I reach for a well-tuned .22-250 & handloads. If I want to bust grapefruit or quart milk jugs filled with water at 100 yards, I can be successful by picking up the next RB that falls out of the bag & loading the flintlock with powder from a brass measure. No further fuss is needed, just load, fire & destroy the target. A grapefruit is no match for a .54 cal RB, & neither is a frozen quart of water on a 120º summer day. Both are impressive to the shooter at the next bench who has agonized over his weighed, miked and tweaked handloaded cartridges, yet is having a bad shooting day.
Step back from the digital scale & micrometer, and go shoot - develop your skill rather than blame for imprecise measurements & weights.
Even smokeless cartridge powder is usually not weighed. They weigh a sample and adjust the powder thrower which then throws the powder by volume. For ultimate pin point accuracy they will weigh every charge, usually the bench shooters.
Constancy is the key. With the volume manufacturers have to put out ammo, they can't weigh every charge. It really doesn't matter if your measure is off by a small amount(unless you are anal about it) as long as you are consistent when you use it and always use the same measure.
Constancy is the key. With the volume manufacturers have to put out ammo, they can't weigh every charge. It really doesn't matter if your measure is off by a small amount(unless you are anal about it) as long as you are consistent when you use it and always use the same measure.
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Best answer.... :thumbsup:
So True.AZbpBurner said:
Even the adjustable measure that Spence "retired" because it was too far off can and would work perfectly for any individual and his rifle if he used that measure to develop and find the best suited specific charge for his rifle and PRB combo using that measure.
Get it?
The actual weight or even the specific comparable volume doesn't matter, as long as that measure consistently delivers the same amount of the powder used for the most accurate combination for that rifle.
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Check them again when you get a new lot of powder or switch brands with the same granulation.
It may or may not be the same weight.
The exact same weight lot to lot really is not all that important in a muzzle loader but the same volume shot to shot is, regardless of granulation or brand.
It may or may not be the same weight.
The exact same weight lot to lot really is not all that important in a muzzle loader but the same volume shot to shot is, regardless of granulation or brand.
When I find the amount of powder that is most accurate for a given firearm, I stick with it. How many grains it is or what it weighs is not important to me, as long as I continue to use the same measuring device.Jethro224 said:
Is this volume-weight equality also accurate for other brands of FFg? I have been informed that Swiss [brand], for example, in any granulation is denser than other black powders. While I have not verified this weighing volume charges (of any black powder), I would expect denser powder to be heavier per unit of volume.
And since I wonder about possible discrepancy when changing granulation and/or brand, relying on volume-weight equality without verifying each specific variation a shooter uses appears to be without foundation.
And since I wonder about possible discrepancy when changing granulation and/or brand, relying on volume-weight equality without verifying each specific variation a shooter uses appears to be without foundation.
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