volume/weight/volume

[coloradoclyde]

GRzrzrzrzrz....Houston, we cleared that noggin with miles to spare..gzrzr----------------Grzrzrzrzr...Roger that concept, Houston out...grzrzrz........... :haha:

 

[Semisane]

Understanding Volume vs. Weight

VOLUME LOAD RECOMMENDATIONS

When dealing with loose powder in muzzleloaders (as opposed to preformed pellets), gun manufacturers and powder manufacturers publish their load recommendations in terms of “volume”.

For example, a gun manufacturer’s manual for a particular .50 caliber gun may recommend a load range of 80 to 120 grains of black powder or a black powder substitute when shooting a certain projectile - such as a 300 grain lead conical. On the other hand, a powder manufacturer addressing .50 caliber muzzleloaders in general (which includes guns from a variety of manufacturers), may set a limit of 100 grains of their powder when shooting 300 grain lead conicals.

Well what about weight? Wouldn’t 80 grains volume be the same as 80 grains weight?

Well, yes, and no, and “it depends”. If you’re confused, don’t feel alone. Many new shooters (and some old hands) are confused by the volume vs. weight issue. I’ve seen experienced shooters tell new shooters things like “you must use a volume measure for XYZ powder”, or “never use weight, use volume charges only”. While such advice isn’t going to get the new shooter in trouble, neither is it accurate.

BACK TO THE BEGINNING: To understand the root cause of today’s volume vs. weight confusion we must go back to the original muzzleloading fuel ”“ real black powder.

Back in the day, black powder in something approximating today’s FF granulation was pretty much the standard in rifles and shotguns. When your great great grandpappy said he was shooting 80 grains of powder he meant his powder charge actually weighed 80 grains. And he probably made a powder measure from a piece of deer antler or river cane that held that amount of powder and called it an 80 grain measure. He might even have marked it with and “80”. So originally, 80 grains volume equaled 80 grains weight.

Even with the advent of black powder cartridges such as the venerable 45-70, weight and volume were the same thing. One could reload a 45-70 cartridge using a 70 grain volume measure and the charge would weigh about 70 grains - if the volume measure was properly calibrated.

WHERE WE ARE TODAY: When dealing with today’s black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex, Triple Seven, Alliant Black MZ, etc., we deal in “equivalent volume”. We still use a measure that is "supposedly" based on the volume and weight of black powder. However, while the volume is the same, the weight is not. With a powder measure set at 100 grains, the charge of FFg black powder will actually weigh around 100 grains, while the same volume of Triple Seven will weigh about 78 grains. And 100 grains volume of Pyrodex will have yet a different weight, as will Alliant Black MZ. But for our purposes, all of them are “100 grain loads”.

SO, I CAN USE WEIGHED CHARGES? Sure you can, so long as you understand that difference between “equivalent volume” and actual weight.

The accepted way of arriving at a weighed charge is to fill you powder measure to the desired volume level, then weigh that charge and use the resulting weight as the base line for weighing out additional charges.

A WORD ABOUT VOLUMENTRIC MEASURES: In theory, today’s commercial volume measures are calibrated based on the weight/volume of FF black powder. However, they do vary. If you weigh 100 grain volume measures of FF black powder from powder measures made by three different manufacturers - say Thompson Center, CVA, and Traditions ”“ the resulting charges will likely vary by as much as ten grains or so from high to low.

For example. I have several TC U-View measures that consistently give me 91 grains weight of GOEX FFg when set at the 100 grain mark and carefully filled without tapping or compacting.. And I have an old Lyman brass measure that produces consistent loads of around 103 grains weight when set at the 100 grain mark.

 

[azmntman]

We've all been talking in circles here because the whole point Spence was trying to get across in his original post was;

...that measure consistently delivers the same amount of the powder...

When I find the amount of powder that is most accurate for a given firearm, I stick with it. How many grains it is or what it weighs is not important to me, as long as I continue to use the same measuring device.

:metoo: :thumbsup:

If my $7.99 measure says 55 grains and thats what I got the best group with I will use it. May weigh 66 grains but it shoots right! However if I take the ol $25.99 measure and use 55 grains and dont get the same results I will need to get a load outta the cheapo measure and fill the good un and see what to use with that measure. The amount needs to be the same.

 

[coloradoclyde]

All my measures are incorrect except the one I made and calibrated with a scale.......but it doesn't affect my shooting because each gun has its own measure.

 

[M. De Land]

My Swiss loads always have more power than does the same load with Goex and it always has far less fines in the bottom of the can.

 

[In Over My Head]

Apparently this is one of those perennial topics. I once posed this and beat the dead horse on until we reached a tentative conclusion that a standard volume for "grains volume equivalent" is: 1 "grain volume" = .003955 cubic inch (or maybe .004 cubic inch).
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/209570/post/444358/hl//fromsearch/1/

 

[azmntman]

Ya....thats what I said :hmm: :rotf:

kinda

 

[coloradoclyde]

That's what everyone has been saying.....just a 1000 different ways... :rotf:

 

[necchi]

Apparently this is one of those perennial topics. I once posed this and beat the dead horse on until we reached a tentative conclusion that a standard volume for "grains volume equivalent" is: 1 "grain volume" = .003955 cubic inch (or maybe .004 cubic inch).

You aughta see what happens if you mention a Dram measurement,,
Then try an tell'm Drams Equivalent has nothing to do with powder, :shocked2:

 

[Alden]

And so...

...without even introducing drams, this volume/weight thing will continue to befuddle some shooters

Half-a-day late(r) but not quite a dollar short(er):

You aughta see what happens if you mention a Dram measurement,,
Then try an tell'm Drams Equivalent has nothing to do with powder, :shocked2:

:haha:

 

[Zonie]

If we are talking about the new synthetic black powders, the thing to remember is they are meant to be measured using a black powder volume method.

Even though they might weigh less than black powder, the amount of power the powder produces is somewhere close to the same amount of power a equal volume of real black powder will make.

Yes there is some difference in the amount of power these new powders produce.
Pyrodex and Seven7seven make about 15 percent more power for any given volume of powder measured.

Swiss also makes more power for a given volume of powder but the bottom line is, if the shooter just measures out the modern powder using the old black powder volume type measure the powder load will be safe to use in the gun.

It may be a bit more powerful and the shot may hit in a different place than it would if real black powder was being used but it is still safe to use.

 

[Skychief]

This has been another entertaining thread. :haha:

Great post Spence. Very straight forward, to the point and accurate (in both volume and weight :applause: :haha: ).

Best regards, Skychief

 

[George]

I don't think that one was a success, Skychief. I'm afraid I didn't put my point across very well. Pity the poor newbies, I expect they are still confused. :wink:

Spence

 

[jamieorr]

Your point came across just fine for this newbie. I'm only confused about the amount of discussion/argument it raised! Thanks for posting it.

Jamie

 

[Katahdin]

With all the Experts on here no telling where it will end up,,,stepping up to the line or lifting a tankard.
Welcome come early,stay late and jump in..

 

[Idaho Ron]

80 Grains in my TC measure is 64.5 grains average of pyrodex P.

 

[Darkgael]

Last Sunday I was experimenting with this idea.
I took a new can of Grafs FFFg and a can of Swiss FFFg. I took a powder measure set at 100 grains. i poured and weighed each three times.
The Graf powder averaged 98 grains +/- a few tenths. The Swiss FFFg averaged 105 grains.
I did the same with Graf FFg and Goex FFg. Surprisingly the Graf FFg averaged 98 grains - same as the FFFg. the Goex averaged 94 grains.