Want a Poor Boy Southern style rifle, do I build or buy ?

[Colorado guy]

I have wanted a flintlock rifle for some time now, but one I wanted to buy on the Forum here disappeared, so it’s either buy one completed, or buy the kit for one, and buy the tools to make it yourself, and go from there. One question is, which kit to buy to make the kind of rifle I want. I’m partial to Southern Poor Boy Style, and can’t stand fancy Brass patch boxes, nose caps, ramrod pipes, or other showy extravagances that take away from the basic utility of a Muzzleloading Flintlock Rifle, IMHO. I want a simple Mountain style rifle that works without being showy.

I like Sitting Fox’s K-44 Southern Mountain Poor Boy their K-46 Tennessee Poor Boy Squirrel Rifle, TVM’s Southern Rifle kit, and Track of the Wolf’s Southern Mountain Flintlock Rifle. Which one is the easiest to put together and build for a complete novice to building a Muzzleloading Flintlock rifle? Which tools would I need to build any of these rifles? How long would it take? And how expensive would it be to build any of these rifles?

Prices are $ 599 for barrels with breech plug installed, lock stock, etc, and around $900-$1000 for the company themselves to assemble the rifle for me. At present I have no tools, all of them having been stolen last Christmas Day.
So what to do? Suggestions?

 

[Zonie]

Like Pecatonica Rivers and Track of the Wolf's Southern style rifle kits, Sitting Fox's is using a Siler lock.

I don't know if you care but almost no Southern or Tennessee style rifle originally was made with the German style locks. Siler Large flintlocks and percussion locks are German styled.

I notice that Track of the Wolf does offer their Early Tennessee with a English Durs Egg lock which is closer to what might be found on a Southern gun.

Check out this link
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate.../1/EARLY-TENNESSEE-LONGRIFLE-FLINT-PARTS-LIST

Don't get me wrong. There are very few people out there who would know the difference so if you want to go with a Siler mounted rifle then do it.
Siler locks have been around for years and they are often the lock that other products are judged against.

As for the kits I'm sure you already know that these are really a box of rough castings and wood.
It all has to be filed and sanded. Screw holes need to be located, drilled and threaded and mortices cut into the wood for some of the parts (after they are filed and finished).

Figure on spending at lest 120 hours of actual work filing/fitting and finishing things to come up with a very plain finished rifle.

 

[Birddog6]

Well, if your tools are gone, you can't build a rifle. :idunno: For me, the First thing on the agenda would be to eliminate the reason or circumstance the tools ended up being gone. If that circumstance has not been eliminated, no use buying any tools as they will just end up gone again. Ya have to resolve the problem before ya can start over. If not, it is a revolving problem that never goes away.

That being said, I would think very few people on here have built the same rifles from both places & honestly can compare the two parts sets.

How long to build it ? That all depends on your skill. I can remember the time it would take me an hour to do One Dovetail ! Now I do 4 (by hand & finished) in 20 min & think nothing of it. I had a friend come visit me one time & wanted me to guide & help him on building a fowler. He & I assembled a Oct-Round fowler parts set in two long days to where you could shoot it. He took it home & finished trimming it down & finishing it. The poorboy would be a easier build, as of less trim & straight barrel.
So it depends on the skill level of what you are doing, & the experience of what you are attempting, etc.

However, since ya have no tools, I suggest ya call Tip Curtis & buy one of Tips rifles. Just tell him you want the poorest Poorboy he has & he can fix ya up with a "In the White" rifle more reasonably than anyone I know. (615) 654-4445 The lock will not be correct unless you tell him you specifically want a English style lock. But he can get ya shooting a flintlock pretty dang quick. You can disassemble it, finish it, & learn a little about how it is built, & then decide if you want another one & whether ya want to go it alone. Also get ya shooting & possibly get some tools bought.

Keith Lisle

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah I agree, I think if you are starting completely from scratch, you are talking of driving up the overall cost, unless you are planning say a year-long-build, and you are going to buy the tools as you go. If you are going to buy tools might as well get good quality tools that will last decades than cheaper stuff that needs often replacement. The in-the-white suggestion is better (imho) for folks who have less time or less budget or combination of both, as you then need less tools and the rifle is finished faster. On the other hand, if you do have the time, getting the proper quality tools and taking the time to correctly put the parts together will give you lots of experience you otherwise might not get. You have to make the decision which way to go.

And I think the Durs Egg lock is pretty "snazzy" so I'd think about a rifle with that lock, myself.

LD

 

[kaintuck]

4 in 20 min?????????

wow yer fast!!!!!!

takes me weeks to do one....sometimes up to a year!!
:stir: :bow:

 

[MSW]

Well, if your tools are gone, you can't build a rifle. :idunno: For me, the First thing on the agenda would be to eliminate the reason or circumstance the tools ended up being gone. If that circumstance has not been eliminated, no use buying any tools as they will just end up gone again. Ya have to resolve the problem before ya can start over. If not, it is a revolving problem that never goes away.

+1 ... Keith's point is well taken!

i'm a proponent of large dogs, but it would depend on your situation, where you live, neighbors, spouse, etc.


if you're going to do more than one gun, I'd start with your basic Sitting Fox parts kit. Buy the tools (good ones - cheap tools are just frustrating to use, don't work properly, and make you look a clumsy fool) as the need comes up, and then you'll have a basic set when you start your next build.

I'm partial to the style, and my nicest Southern Mountain is from a Pecatonica precarve with a Durs Egg lock ... not sure if Sitting Fox offers a Durs Egg - if not, they might be able to leave the inletting to you ... at worst case you can get them to not do the inlet, sell the Siler and buy a Durs Egg on your own...

if, on the other hand, the PC/HC thing doesn't bother you, use the Siler, which is an excellent lock and will serve you well ...

Good luck with your build

make good smoke!

 

[Birddog6]

My lock choice would be a Late Ketland from Jim Chambers Flintlocks. I have used allot of them with good reliable success.

Keith Lisle

 

[Birddog6]

After the first hundred or two, they get pretty easy & quick to do. :wink: Kinda like accumulating years, once ya have experienced 50+ of them, the second half start adding up faster & faster ! :idunno:

Keith Lisle

 

[jamesthomas]

I'm having a Durs egg (ie Queen Ann) lock put on my Southern rifle, I like the way they look. Right now I'm saving for a table, an some clamps an tools. Hopefully as soon as my brother gets the lock inletted I'll can finish the rifle myself. Btw, I'll have about 3 or 4 for TomToms to help me out. One is a spitting image for Kaintucks cat. It's a TVM Kit with a Mark DeHass 36" barrel. Kinda ff but You all know how it goes.

 

[don hepler]

I'm with Birddog6 on this one. Get a Tip Curtis rifle in the white. People who are experienced and build rifles, just drool over my Tip Curtis rifle. I'm thinking about getting another rifle from him, while I still can.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm real particular about the handling and balance of my guns, especially small calibers, so I'm hesitant to buy a finished gun without having a chance to handle it first. I'm much more inclined to buy in-the-white so I can do my own stock slimming and trimming to get the balance I want. I don't have the inclination to build from scratch any more, but assuming a very good job of inletting and fitting, I still can get exactly what I want on a rifle with an in-the-white starting point.

 

[Birddog6]

Your slimming & trimming of a "In the White" rifle will mean absolutely nothing, cause there is basically nothing to take off. :idunno: It is already down to where it is ready to be finished, other than final sanding & carving, if you wish to carve it. But you will not change the balance of it, cause it is built as it is built.

Keith Lisle

 

[BrownBear]

I got one that was waaay too bulky for my tastes in the forend. Took it down to where I wanted it, and shifted the balance accordingly. If it had been finished, I'd never have bought it after handling. Same even with kits like the Lyman GPR. I whittled heck out of the last one I built, and finally got the rifle I wanted. It's a 50, but now balances more like their 54, which I prefer.

Hats off to you if the in-the-whites you turn out have nothing to spare, but from what I've seen that's not the rule of thumb for the market. There always seems to be "proud" wood that needs addressing.

 

[rdillion]

Since I acquired the tools and skills to build my own SM rifles I prefer to build my own. The first couple were pretty rough but I learned on the way. Now I'm looking at restocking/rebuilding one of my earlier builds. All I'll need to buy is a stock blank. I'll reshape the Siler flintlock I have and make new a butt-plate and trigger-guard. Ramrod pipes, triggers, patch box will also need to be made and I'll also need a new long tang breech plug. Whew, I've got a bit of work to do but I'm not out a lot of money. This rifle building is very addicting.
:idunno: :surrender:

 

[jdkerstetter]

What is your goal in reshaping your Siler lock? Just curious. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Birddog6]

Hats off to you if the in-the-whites you turn out have nothing to spare, but from what I've seen that's not the rule of thumb for the market. There always seems to be "proud" wood that needs addressing.

First off, I don't build "In the White" rifles to sell, I sell completed rifles. The "In the White" rifles I was referring to were the ones Tip Curtis builds & sells, and thought I said that, but perhaps I didn't make it clear.. His are pretty much trimmed down, IMHO. Could have a lil more wood off at times, but not much to it would make any big weight or balance dif to speak of. Removing wood is misleading, when it comes to actually weight removal. May make it look Pounds lighter because it is now slimmer, but it takes allot of wood to get weight actually off. Other people selling In-the-White rifles... I can't tell ya, I was referring to Tip's rifles. The style of the rifle, barrel weight, and size of the buttstock are the weight determining factors.

As for the GPRs. I have owned 3 of them & shot them for many years. The last one I took off all the wood I could off the half forestock & took all the perchbelly out of the buttstock, cut down the cheekpiece down & etc. I slimmed it down all I could & still retain the original buttplate & nosecap. All that wood off took off merely 2.8 ounces of weight, and made it more muzzle heavier than it originally was. And I know this for fact, as I weighed the stock on a digital scale before & after, as I wanted to see just how much dif. it would make. Now it really looked much slimmer & lighter, but not much dif in actual weight & the balance point moved aprox. 1/2" further out away from my shoulder, rather than in towards the shoulder.


That is my take on it anyway. :idunno: I can agree to disagree. :grin:

Keith Lisle

 

[rdillion]

Ken Guy had a post somewhere about reshaping the Germanic Siler lock to make it look more English. Basically just rounding the tail and bottom of the pan.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I thought that's what you were going for. :wink:

Go to the American Longrifles site and do a search for small "english" silers.

The first two posts that pop up will give you some ideas.

I would reshape the hammer as well, to give it the less angular, smoother "S" curve of an English lock.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[rdillion]

Thanks, I,ll check it out. Seems I remember Ken doing something with the hammer but can't remember. Been a couple of years since I read that article.

 

[Birddog6]

Yes, Ken has done them. This is a LH Siler I did some time ago. Lock on the left is a Chambers Late Ketland. Lock on the rifle is a Chambers LH Large Siler.



I later rounded off that flat part of the frizzen, just in front of the frizzen pivot, more like the Ketland.

Keith Lisle