Want to purchase an Uberti 1851 Navy, but have some questions

[springfield art]

Get a Pietta. I like mine it shoot goooood

View attachment 142627

Don't overlook a nice older Armi San Marco! Mine from early 90's are really nice.

 

[Bunk]

My Walkers got sloppy in the barrel/frame fit really quick, because of sloppy Arbor fitting. It is important , almost necessary, for the big horse revolvers that use 50gr charges.

The average guy can get away with a .36 Navy using the wedge to absorb the recoil for the probably 100 rounds per year he'll shoot but the big guns are less forgiving of improper arbor fit.

Arbor fit is important for accuracy. If the barrel lug touches the frame before the arbor bottoms when you drive in the wedge depending how hard it is driven the barrel if forced up. Not much, but on my `861 navy 0.011" will move the POA one inch at 25 yards.
On all my frames the barrel lugs touch when the arbor bottoms out and will shoot a lot better than I can hold.
For anyone that wants accuracy arbor length, a simple thing to fix, is important. Not urgent, but important.

 

[45D]

Amen, I have found the same things to be true in my own work and experimentation on open top revolvers! Fixing a short arbor is easy enough to do and harms nothing but is really a solution in search of a theorized problem ! I'm quite sure Pietta engineers realized this at the get go from the accuracy , longevity and safety stand point but since getting re-equipped with CNC driven machinery it made it easy to fit up the short arbors without expensive hand fitting which would have jacked up their costs before CNC implementation.
I also believe from what I have seen to this point that harmonics (particularly in open frame guns that were designed with flex in mind ) is a great theory that has no provable deficit to accuracy or strength issues. Ransom rest testing may change my thinking on this but I have to say what I believe to be true at this point in time of personal usage and discovery.
End of arbor joint compression via the wedge and slot seats creates no more resistance to barrel expulsion than if there is a gap. Harmonics plays no part in adding or detracting from strength in this instance. It is a pure (slot/ wedge) fit, tensile , ductile and compressive strength of steel issue here. All of the resistance pressure is on the key and end slot of the arbor. The end of the arbor well (which is part of and one piece with the barrel) is (at ignition) always and for ever trying to move away from the end of the arbor and drag the wedge and end of arbor slot with it.
I have never personally witnessed any Pietta reproduction. of any model , that has been proven to have blown off the barrel because of a short arbor. It has happened from arbors which were altered from factory spec.

"Designed with flex in mind" where did you read this? Just your theory maybe?
Anyway, harmonics has nothing to do with strength but everything to do with assemblies working together rather than against each other.

So, I think you've gone as far as you can see so . . . they say "go as far as you can see and when you get there, you'll be able to see farther". As far as a " theorized problem " If you can't understand the arbor being the limiting factor as to how far the barrel can locate (rather than an imprecise "wedge placement" " combined with changing dimensions by getting hammered (referring to the harmonics thing)) then I can't or don't need to go any further. I thought I have explained it so many times and so many ways that anyone should be able to see the whole picture but I guess not. This whole discussion should at least give most a picture of what is going on with the open top design along with the "whys" and "why nots".


I do wonder what you do to make sure your wedge is exactly where it should be, what happens as any wear comes into play as far as the wedge. Since it is the limiting factor in your setup . . .
Me, my customers, and many hundreds of others don't have to worry as long as the wedge is driven in . . . the barrel is always in the correct position . . .

Mike

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Don't overlook a nice older Armi San Marco! Mine from early 90's are really nice.

Shhhh don't let em know ..... More for us

 

[M. De Land]

"Designed with flex in mind" where did you read this? Just your theory maybe?
Anyway, harmonics has nothing to do with strength but everything to do with assemblies working together rather than against each other.

So, I think you've gone as far as you can see so . . . they say "go as far as you can see and when you get there, you'll be able to see farther". As far as a " theorized problem " If you can't understand the arbor being the limiting factor as to how far the barrel can locate (rather than an imprecise "wedge placement" " combined with changing dimensions by getting hammered (referring to the harmonics thing)) then I can't or don't need to go any further. I thought I have explained it so many times and so many ways that anyone should be able to see the whole picture but I guess not. This whole discussion should at least give most a picture of what is going on with the open top design along with the "whys" and "why nots".


I do wonder what you do to make sure your wedge is exactly where it should be, what happens as any wear comes into play as far as the wedge. Since it is the limiting factor in your setup . . .
Me, my customers, and many hundreds of others don't have to worry as long as the wedge is driven in . . . the barrel is always in the correct position . . .

Mike

I believe I have understanding of your thinking of all the areas discussed and am enjoying the exchange of ideas it's just a difference of opinion in some areas. You seem to think that your ideas are the last word on all subjects discussed but personal experience of my own in both shooting and working these guns over raises some points of contention. Keep an open mind your self ,perhaps you can pick up some useful ideas.
I agree and have said that the one good thing about arbor end fit is ease of consistent wedge depth insertion assuming the wedge is not deformed by being to soft. A wedge that is hard enough to not deform can be inserted just as precisely by the under ledge gap or cylinder gap using a feeler gauge and they don't have to be driven in .
Open frame guns flex/move at every shot because it is not a rigid design. The trick is to get them to make the same movement each time which requires good fit of all the parts and their seats involved in the design,
The very same is true of 1911 Colts with all the moving non rigid parts.
Tight end fit of the arbor does not make it rigid with the well/barrel , there is still movement between arbor and well no matter how hard you try and force the ends together via the wedge. The main reason, other than design, that this is true is because of tolerances that allow the frame, arbor and barrel group to be put together and taken apart by hand .
It seems that your attitude is "That's the way I was taught and there just isn't any other way"!

 

[45D]

So you go on your personal experience with your ideas. Fine.
I also have personal experience with my own revolvers. In fact this arbor ordeal is why I'm a tuner today! My revolvers always came back from the range with some metal movement, wedges bent, endshake obviously larger than when they started at the range. Shooting unspeakable ammo is more punishing to the revolver than bp is. So, I needed to find out how to have the same revolver when I came home from the range that had taken to the range. After I found Pettifogger's articles it all made since. Later on actually tuning some Original open Tops allowed me to verify that Mr. Pettifogger was correct.
Since my own revolvers now remained unharmed and having the same tolerances after a visit to the range was further verification that these modifications were necessary if a person expected the same results.
So, I have pre mod experience (since I was about 15 yo). I educated myself and have experienced trouble free shooting for the last 10yrs. So, as you say in your post, I was taught tuning (from probably the best tuner alive today, Mr. Jim Martin). I educated myself with Larson's articles and verified the articles finally with original revolvers. Therefore, I'll stick with Colt, Pettifogger and Mr. Martin as to design and how to make them run.

Shortly after I "fixed" my own, it occurred to me that since mine DON'T take a beating anymore with unmentionable ammo, shooting bp in the same setup would be a breeze!!! 100's of revolvers now run just like mine do and that's a lot of experience. My revolvers have won many state championships over the years and those competition guns get shot many times more than the average shooter.
I'd say that's a lot of testing of a modification that has been born out time and time again. You can think what you want but education followed with experience times hundreds is all the verification I need.

Mike

 

[11Bravo]

I found this thread very interesting, even the varied opinions in certain areas. I know we are dealing with reproductions, but what about original Colts or Remington's as far as arbor fit, timing, cylinder bore to barrel bore dimensions etc? Assuming it's a numbers matching little used original.

"LOL probably New York! The law in NY is something to the affect that if you own a BP revolver you can’t have any of the items to make it fire! No caps no balls no powder. That is why my revolvers are at my house in NH. There I can go out in my back and shoot to my heart’s content. If you want to legally shoot them in NY they need to be registered just like any other hand gun. I don’t know what the rules are for musket pistols I have seen people at the range shooting them."

I'm in NY and what a time I had getting my ROA added to my CCP (because it was BP) to keep me legal in this state hunting that has turned bad since the 70s.

 

[45D]

I found this thread very interesting, even the varied opinions in certain areas. I know we are dealing with reproductions, but what about original Colts or Remington's as far as arbor fit, timing, cylinder bore to barrel bore dimensions etc? Assuming it's a numbers matching little used original.

"LOL probably New York! The law in NY is something to the affect that if you own a BP revolver you can’t have any of the items to make it fire! No caps no balls no powder. That is why my revolvers are at my house in NH. There I can go out in my back and shoot to my heart’s content. If you want to legally shoot them in NY they need to be registered just like any other hand gun. I don’t know what the rules are for musket pistols I have seen people at the range shooting them."

I'm in NY and what a time I had getting my ROA added to my CCP (because it was BP) to keep me legal in this state hunting that has turned bad since the 70s.

The arbors in the originals bottomed out. That's why I do mine the way I do. The design is excellent if done correctly.

Mike

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

So, i bought the gun from Long Hunter's. it showed up and was the wrong model. they sent me a Colt London. I ordered the Navy Brass. Jim @ longhunt was very apologetic and paid to have it picked up and said they would start working on the brass and would ship it as soon as they got the london. I can tell you that it was a very very nice gun. sweet trigger pull. arbor worked perfectly: perfect alignment. they tighten the wedge a little tighter than normal so you won't have any issues. you can't just push the spring and pop it out. apparently the original colts had this problem and people's barrels just fell off while they were shooting, hence the need to use something to tap it out.
i did not go with the 11-degree crown or the increased bore size. Jim said that unless i was competing in civil war competitions where they need tight groups at 50-yards, it was just not worth the extra money and i would not see any difference in my groups at 25-35 yards.
it was a sweet gun, just all black b/c that is how the London came. I'm getting my Navy Brass Tomorrow via Fedex. Can't wait, however there are ZERO caps available in the world so i won't be able to shoot it until caps start making it to stores again. Super-Bummer.

 

[Ed C.]

OK, so that begs the newbie question.....WHO IS GOON??? website? contact info?

Goons Gun Works A gunsmith that is well known for tuning guns. He has a good reputation for the work he does and will share his knowledge in this forum. Usually, if you start a discussion on arbor length he will appear.

 

[Zulch]

1851 Colt London models are nice. Generally a little more pricey than a brasser I believe?

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

1851 Colt London models are nice. Generally a little more pricey than a brasser I believe?

it was the same price. i liked the look of the brass. London is just completely black. just a personal preference. both nice guns.

 

[Joemolf]

Hey buddy!! The bolt block is just a fitted chunk of steel that lays along side of the bolt ( not quite like snuggling with the wifey but close .. lol). Since it has the ability to have "accidental contact" along the whole side of the bolt, it does an excellent job of limiting the horizontal movement of the bolt. It takes up the space that the force of the rotating cyl wants to push the bolt into. Therefore it stops any unwanted movement horizontally. It takes the size of the bolt window out of the equation so to speak. The rear of the block is angled so that it extends under the unused part of the bolt screw pin while the forward end is trapped under the trigger side of the re-purposed combination spring.
This can be clearly seen in this pic.

View attachment 142574

The bolt side of the re-purposed combo spring is shaped to be a keeper for the stationary end of the torsion springs.

Mike

Wow that spring is significantly more substantial than the junk spring that comes in the Ubertie or piettas. Nice job

 

[dsk]

I'm getting my Navy Brass Tomorrow via Fedex. Can't wait, however there are ZERO caps available in the world so i won't be able to shoot it until caps start making it to stores again. Super-Bummer.

Last weekend I was at a Cabelas and just happened to think to ask a salesperson if they've ever gotten in any caps in recent memory. He told me they'd just gotten in a small number of Remington #11s. I grabbed 7 of them. So they are being made, just not in sufficient numbers to last on the shelves for more than a minute or two.

 

[smoothshooter]

I think you would do better to get a good second hand pistol and then send it to Goon.

What is Goon’s turnaround time?
Some of those guys are backed up for close to a year.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I've never taken to foolish spending, and found many years ago that there isn't any simple "tuning" I couldn't do to a cap and ball revolver to improve its' action. To me, spending a few hundred $ to have someone do a little twiddling is sucker bait.
There is a myriad of Youtube videos that go into various easy DIY tune-up procedures, and you can get springs a lot cheaper yourself. Careful use of a Dremel tool is what is required.
Cabelas revolvers on sale comprise most of my collection. Money saved was used for molds, tools and accessories.

 

[45D]

I'd have to agree, anyone that spends hundreds for someone to do a " little twiddling" is foolish!!

Of course if you're going to do your own tuning, it's best to know WHAT to do as opposed to what you THINK needs to be done. Some vids you see on YouTube show you how to screw up a revolver and even make them dangerous to you and those around you. Merely lightening a main spring can turn an "ok" trigger pull into an accident waiting to happen . . . knowing how to correct that is a big plus!!

Mike

 

[Joemolf]

Some are tinkers some are not. I have several pdfs of tuning the Ubertie and Pietta revolvers. Of all the YouTube video I watched and the dozen or so instructions I have never saw the trigger and spring mode early in this post. I’d pay to have that mod done. I also would like the arm spring mod done which I think I can handle being I have a good drill press. I bought the pins and the springs tiny to do the mode I think it copies the manner in which Smith and Wesson did their revolvers. It is just cool the parts spring and pin I think I got from VTI in Connecticut. Damn that even have lever cams for 1873 rifle lever which can wear over time. All cool stuff and some may be not possible for the average tinkerer. So for me I like knowing there are guys that can make things better. I also think most are fair. Deburring and polishing is something everyone should do and if still not happy especially with timing send it out. Plus most are willing to share what they know and can help people understand what it is they are paying for. One thing you will never learn or I have not watching YouTube is how to adjust timing the most critical part of a tune. I have purchased books the single and dual action colt to get some what of a grip on timing. The cam on the trigger the soft arms and the bolt I’m still not sure what i am doing when I play with them. LOL call me slow

 

[Bad Karma]

I've never taken to foolish spending, and found many years ago that there isn't any simple "tuning" I couldn't do to a cap and ball revolver to improve its' action. To me, spending a few hundred $ to have someone do a little twiddling is sucker bait.
There is a myriad of Youtube videos that go into various easy DIY tune-up procedures, and you can get springs a lot cheaper yourself. Careful use of a Dremel tool is what is required.
Cabelas revolvers on sale comprise most of my collection. Money saved was used for molds, tools and accessories.

Good grief. Sucker bait? Seriously, everyone has differing abilities. My son has masters degrees in engineering fields and I wouldn’t let him rotate the tires on the family sedan. But he’s a pretty fair rifle smith. He can build an accurate bolt gun or a replica of an SR25 that can pick the staples off a 100 yard target. Training is the difference. That and the fact that it’s so much smarter to pay someone else to rotate those tires.

Yes, watching YouTube videos is a gre way to learn some of the simpler aspects of firearms maintenance. Tuning? I wouldn’t trust tha to just anyone but that’s just me.

 

[Billy Boy]

Well, you can't shoot anywhere outside in my county because it is too populated so that means smokeless as well as bp. Of course we have indoor ranges but they don't allow bp so it's smokeless only. So, my "favorite" revolvers have conversions in them (all .45's. I'm not into the .38 spl / barrel lining voo doo stuff).
I could drive to a neighboring county but don't have that kind of time just to shoot bp, so smokeless it is !!! Lol

Mike

So, what country is it?