Warm water and dish soap?

[Brokennock]

Well soap makes water wetter and is the reason it will de-solve more and faster than water alone. Warm water heats metal and causes it to expand which in turn enlarges the pores in the steel. So warm soapy water does translate to a deeper cleaning power than water alone.
Barrel steel warms up from the combustion of burning powder which again expands metal (opens pores) and the pressure drives the fouling into them.
Warm soapy water gets in and desolves fouling better than clear water alone. Clear warm water cleans better than clean cold water and when soap is added it results in a force multiplier.
I believe when the pores in the barrel steel are opened by warm water than a good water displacing oil such as WD-40 or Kroil should be used to get the rinse moisture out of the steel pores and then wiped dry with a clean patching. The final step is a good preservative left in the bore. I believe a good natural oil not petroleum base product is the best way to go about this. Bear grease was touted by Ned Roberts of percussion era fame to be one of the best along with Sperm oil which is not available now days.
I have found a product made of plant oils which is both and excellent cleaner and very good bore preservative know as Gunzilla. It is the best lead and carbon remover I have ever incountered to date when applied by a tight cloth patch on a jag.

+1 on the Gunzilla
I have a product that removes carbon better, but isn't plant based and I don't use it with muzzleloaders.
I've found Gunzilla to be an excellent lock oil in that it is very thin so doesn't take a lot to do a thorough job, and, it doesn't seem to freeze.

 

[Crow Choker]

I know just plain hot, not boiling water will clean, but I've always used the hot/warm water with a bit of Dawn type soap, but after I got on to Balistol that's my go to cleaner. Warm water and Balistol (usually a more concentrate than the 10% most advise, sometimes a 50/50 blend. Clean until clean, then a good oiling alot of times with Balistol. Swab bore and cylinders (if revolver) dry before shooting. Never a speck of rust in alot of years going this route.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well soap makes water wetter and is the reason it will de-solve more and faster than water alone. Warm water heats metal and causes it to expand which in turn enlarges the pores in the steel. So warm soapy water does translate to a deeper cleaning power than water alone.
Barrel steel warms up from the combustion of burning powder which again expands metal (opens pores) and the pressure drives the fouling into them.
Warm soapy water gets in and desolves fouling better than clear water alone. Clear warm water cleans better than clean cold water and when soap is added it results in a force multiplier.
I believe when the pores in the barrel steel are opened by warm water than a good water displacing oil such as WD-40 or Kroil should be used to get the rinse moisture out of the steel pores and then wiped dry with a clean patching. The final step is a good preservative left in the bore. I believe a good natural oil not petroleum base product is the best way to go about this. Bear grease was touted by Ned Roberts of percussion era fame to be one of the best along with Sperm oil which is not available now days.
I have found a product made of plant oils which is both and excellent cleaner and very good bore preservative know as Gunzilla. It is the best lead and carbon remover I have ever incountered to date when applied by a tight cloth patch on a jag.

Pores! Never heard of steel having pores! Cast irons and cast steels can have porosity. Steels can have inclusions but I've never heard of the surface of steel as having pores.
Are you sure steel has pores??

 

[M. De Land]

Pores! Never heard of steel having pores! Cast irons and cast steels can have porosity. Steels can have inclusions but I've never heard of the surface of steel as having pores.
Are you sure steel has pores??

That is a good question ! Metal porosity is usually a product of shrinkage when steel is formed from alloy combinations in the original melt. Pores can also be formed when steel is welded , or normalized as carbon cooks out if not properly shielded.
I've seen barrel interiors with porosity from when they were formed, machined and rifled, probably an inclusion or carbon cook out when the barrel was normalized (annealed) between button passes .
You will also occasionally find bore pitting from carbon cook out under a sight or barrel band that was hard soldered in place.
Improper cleaning will produce porosity in the form of pitting to a lessor or greater degree. Flash rust is actually causing microscopic pitting or porosity.
I was including machine marks in a bore from reaming and rifling in the "porosity" theme which it technically is not but has the same effect of collecting fouling that needs to be removed.
I should have more accurately said bore porosity from all causes or machining scratches can be more effectively cleaned with warm soapy water.
I've never found any liquid that will desolve black powder fouling better than warm H20 with a bit of soap in it. Then the WD-40 or Ballsitol to remove the moisture and Gunzilla or non petroleum oil to protect the clean and dry steel.

 

[M. De Land]

That is a good question ! Metal porosity is usually a product of shrinkage when steel is formed from alloy combinations in the original melt. Pores can also be formed when steel is welded , or normalized as carbon cooks out if not properly shielded.
I've seen barrel interiors with porosity from when they were formed, machined and rifled, probably an inclusion or carbon cook out when the barrel was normalized (annealed) between button passes .
You will also occasionally find bore pitting from carbon cook out under a sight or barrel band that was hard soldered in place.
Improper cleaning will produce porosity in the form of pitting to a lessor or greater degree. Flash rust is actually causing microscopic pitting or porosity.
I was including machine marks in a bore from reaming and rifling in the "porosity" theme which it technically is not but has the same effect of collecting fouling that needs to be removed.
I should have more accurately said bore porosity from all causes or machining scratches can be more effectively cleaned with warm soapy water.
I've never found any liquid that will desolve black powder fouling better than warm H20 with a bit of soap in it. Then the WD-40 or Ballsitol to remove the moisture and Gunzilla or non petroleum oil to protect the clean and dry steel.

Two of the best investments I ever made some 15-20 years ago in trying to gain more understanding of how bores work or not was a Hawkeye Bore scope with a 24-x lens and a set of plug gauges. Viewing even a low count, fired barrel through the magnified lens one gets a real eye opener in what machined and pressure fired steel looks like close up. The surface of the moon comes to mind in what looks to the normal eye like a smooth barrel. You will see pores/pits , scratches both radially and longitudinal, dips , gouges , galling and burned steel if there is a throat involved..
I had a good friend quip when I got the scope, "Mike, you may see more than you really wanted to know"! Boy that was an understatement but in the end knowing the truth about anything is actually freeing because now you have a foundation to make improvement.
I have learned so much from both the scope and plug gauges and is one of the reasons I have come to have so much faith in what hand lapping can accomplish.
I now believe a lapped bore even with some pitting can be as accurate as it ever was if the crown is good , the bore level and does not rip the patch or deform the ball/bullet. All any rifle bore needs do is impart spin, not deform the projectile in any way and release it squarely on axis. If it can accomplish those three things it will almost certainly be accurate.

 

[Britsmoothy]

That is a good question ! Metal porosity is usually a product of shrinkage when steel is formed from alloy combinations in the original melt. Pores can also be formed when steel is welded , or normalized as carbon cooks out if not properly shielded.
I've seen barrel interiors with porosity from when they were formed, machined and rifled, probably an inclusion or carbon cook out when the barrel was normalized (annealed) between button passes .
You will also occasionally find bore pitting from carbon cook out under a sight or barrel band that was hard soldered in place.
Improper cleaning will produce porosity in the form of pitting to a lessor or greater degree. Flash rust is actually causing microscopic pitting or porosity.
I was including machine marks in a bore from reaming and rifling in the "porosity" theme which it technically is not but has the same effect of collecting fouling that needs to be removed.
I should have more accurately said bore porosity from all causes or machining scratches can be more effectively cleaned with warm soapy water.
I've never found any liquid that will desolve black powder fouling better than warm H20 with a bit of soap in it. Then the WD-40 or Ballsitol to remove the moisture and Gunzilla or non petroleum oil to protect the clean and dry steel.

To quote Google,
" a minute opening in a surface, especially the skin or integument of an organism, through which gases, liquids, or microscopic particles may pass."

Steel does not have pores, it has a solid structure. Nothing can pass through it without intense temperature and force.
It can come with flaws, porosity from oxidisation and inclusions.
If it had pores that opened up on firing we would find a residue on the out side of the barrel after shooting.

I just think it's all being over thought.
Wd40, keep it. It does not displace water. It floats on water, it is lighter than water!
Myths and nonsense abound in the world of shooting more than anywhere else on the planet!

 

[Osseon]

When Dave Person made my rifle he gave me an instruction on how cleaning and personally I find it genius.

I take the barrel off the rifle (incredibly quick process when you know what to do, takes about a minute). Then stick the barrel Breech down muzzle up inside of a 5 gallon bucket with hot water from the tap and dawn soap. Make sure the vent hole is surbmerged and then start ramming a cleaning patch down. You'll essentially create a water pump where you suck water up and flush it out of the vent hole. After a few times doing that the water will be jet black, replace the patch 2-3 times. Then I personally dump the water and fill it back up in the bath tub and add some soap and repeat with one patch. Run a dry patch or two and then oil barrel. Done and super easy. Makes cleaning a 44 inch barrel a breeze.

 

[M. De Land]

To quote Google,
" a minute opening in a surface, especially the skin or integument of an organism, through which gases, liquids, or microscopic particles may pass."

Steel does not have pores, it has a solid structure. Nothing can pass through it without intense temperature and force.
It can come with flaws, porosity from oxidisation and inclusions.
If it had pores that opened up on firing we would find a residue on the out side of the barrel after shooting.

I just think it's all being over thought.
Wd40, keep it. It does not displace water. It floats on water, it is lighter than water!
Myths and nonsense abound in the world of shooting more than anywhere else on the planet!

Seems like were saying the same thing but apparently the term porosity is giving you trouble. Allow me to restate and say, any imperfection in the bore interior surface ( pits, inclusions, carbon cook out (scale ) or machine scratches ,that collect fouling from, the pressure and heat of BP combustion will be cleaned easier and more effectively with warm soapy water than with just water alone.
WD stands for "water displacing". The 40 is the number of trials it took before it was successful at that property and good enough to be marketed.
Carbon passes in and out of the surface of solid steel quite readily with the correct heat (case hardening and non shielded welding or hard soldering scaling) are examples. Carbon infusion with shielding does not make the steel porous but carbon cook out willwithot the shielding will.
Now back to the original point being that warm soapy water is the most effective way to eliminate the effects of bore corrosion I have found.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Seems like were saying the same thing but apparently the term porosity is giving you trouble. Allow me to restate and say, any imperfection in the bore interior surface ( pits, inclusions, carbon cook out (scale ) or machine scratches ,that collect fouling from, the pressure and heat of BP combustion will be cleaned easier and more effectively with warm soapy water than with just water alone.
WD stands for "water displacing". The 40 is the number of trials it took before it was successful at that property and good enough to be marketed.
Carbon passes in and out of the surface of solid steel quite readily with the correct heat (case hardening and non shielded welding or hard soldering scaling) are examples. Carbon infusion with shielding does not make the steel porous but carbon cook out willwithot the shielding will.
Now back to the original point being that warm soapy water is the most effective way to eliminate the effects of bore corrosion I have found.

Where is the water displaced to?
If I were to brim a bathtub with water and then tip a gallon of wd40 on top how much water would it displace?
Add wd40 to a dry surface and then add water the water will for a short while be repelled but not displaced.
It won't magically disappear. It will retain its surface tension and gravity will pull it to the lowest point but it won't be displaced, it will be still there. In our case the interior of the barrel.
Regarding exciting the atoms of the steel enough to release carbon via the combustion of black powder forget it. That doesn't really become an issue until nitro is used as propellants.
Oh, and don't get none of that wd40 around the stock, it rots wood.

 

[M. De Land]

Where is the water displaced to?
If I were to brim a bathtub with water and then tip a gallon of wd40 on top how much water would it displace?
Add wd40 to a dry surface and then add water the water will for a short while be repelled but not displaced.
It won't magically disappear. It will retain its surface tension and gravity will pull it to the lowest point but it won't be displaced, it will be still there. In our case the interior of the barrel.
Regarding exciting the atoms of the steel enough to release carbon via the combustion of black powder forget it. That doesn't really become an issue until nitro is used as propellants.
Oh, and don't get none of that wd40 around the stock, it rots wood.

My understanding is that WD -40 mixes with water and the water is evaporated out of the mix leaving the oil behind to block oxidation. I no longer use it as a preservative as it also evaporates over time and the left over film is not very resilient to oxidation. I use it to get the water out of the metal imperfections only.
It is also a penetrate and is the reason it will desolve bluing/browning off a barrel with repeated use. The penetrate property is how it gets into the barrel imperfections.
The porosity I have talked about is not from the heat of BP combustion ,it is from the various heating cycles of the barrel steel when the metal is cast, rolled, forged , machined, annealed (normalized at appox 1200 degrees F between passes when button rifling is used) or worked ( sights, lugs and bands hard soldered on the barrel ) after the barrel is made. The BP combustion and pressure does heat and expand the metal and drive the fouling into the expanded surface imperfections ( I used the term pores). These trap fouling and if not properly cleaned will cause barrel corrosion.

 

[Britsmoothy]

My understanding is that WD -40 mixes with water and the water is evaporated out of the mix leaving the oil behind to block oxidation. I no longer use it as a preservative as it also evaporates over time and the left over film is not very resilient to oxidation. I use it to get the water out of the metal imperfections only.
It is also a penetrate and is the reason it will desolve bluing/browning off a barrel with repeated use. The penetrate property is how it gets into the barrel imperfections.
The porosity I have talked about is not from the heat of BP combustion ,it is from the various heating cycles of the barrel steel when the metal is cast, rolled, forged , machined, annealed (normalized at appox 1200 degrees F between passes when button rifling is used) or worked ( sights, lugs and bands hard soldered on the barrel ) after the barrel is made. The BP combustion and pressure does heat and expand the metal and drive the fouling into the expanded surface imperfections ( I used the term pores). These trap fouling and if not properly cleaned will cause barrel corrosion.

OK, so the water is not displaced, it is absorbed.
So it's still present. Like I said!

It's just sales pitch hype and folk fall for it.

You'll have to show me a scientific study that confirms your theory about fouling being driven into the temporary expansion of the steels surface via firing of a muzzleloader.

Carbon steel has to reach 2600f or more to start absorbing carbon.
If our barrels are reach that temp even for a nano second we are in deep doodoo! For one a cloth patch would be useless and severe leading would always be an issue.

You know what, I'm going to stick to hot water, I know it dries my barrels out and then apply my natural animal and veg fat grease, I know it doesn't run everywhere like flash channels but does prevent any residual salt and carbon from blooming into rust. Easy peasy.

No stress, no science lessons, no anxierty and no sleepless nights.

 

[M. De Land]

OK, so the water is not displaced, it is absorbed.
So it's still present. Like I said!

It's just sales pitch hype and folk fall for it.

You'll have to show me a scientific study that confirms your theory about fouling being driven into the temporary expansion of the steels surface via firing of a muzzleloader.

Carbon steel has to reach 2600f or more to start absorbing carbon.
If our barrels are reach that temp even for a nano second we are in deep doodoo! For one a cloth patch would be useless and severe leading would always be an issue.

You know what, I'm going to stick to hot water, I know it dries my barrels out and then apply my natural animal and veg fat grease, I know it doesn't run everywhere like flash channels but does prevent any residual salt and carbon from blooming into rust. Easy peasy.

No stress, no science lessons, no anxierty and no sleepless n

WD-40 displaces water by mixing with it and then being oil is more viscous and causes the water to evaporate while it remains to protect against oxidation. It too will evaporate but at a much slower rate protecting the surface from oxidation while the water is removed. Again WD stands for water displacing !
I case harden steel gun recieivers both for color and strength. I can get a shallow case about .003 depth with temperature as low a 1325 degrees F which is adequate for low pressure shooting . I know of no case hardening protcol for carbon, gun quality steel . that uses temperatures above 1650 degrees F. Carbon Steel melts at 25-2800 degrees F and no case hardening protocol I'm aware of approaches the melting point.

 

[Britsmoothy]

WD-40 displaces water by mixing with it and then being oil is more viscous and causes the water to evaporate while it remains to protect against oxidation. It too will evaporate but at a much slower rate protecting the surface from oxidation while the water is removed. Again WD stands for water displacing !
I case harden steel gun recieivers both for color and strength. I can get a shallow case about .003 depth with temperature as low a 1325 degrees F which is adequate for low pressure shooting . I know of no case hardening protcol for carbon, gun quality steel . that uses temperatures above 1650 degrees F. Carbon Steel melts at 25-2800 degrees F and no case hardening protocol I'm aware of approaches the melting point.

Absorbing is not displacing.
Case hardening takes longer than micro seconds.
But hey, if it makes you happy then we both are.

 

[2 shots]

does anyone have a stuck ball we can talk about???

 

[Britsmoothy]

does anyone have a stuck ball we can talk about???

Sure, go do it then come back here with it
No wd40 now, OK!

 

[MikeMyDay]

When Dave Person made my rifle he gave me an instruction on how cleaning and personally I find it genius.

I take the barrel off the rifle (incredibly quick process when you know what to do, takes about a minute). Then stick the barrel Breech down muzzle up inside of a 5 gallon bucket with hot water from the tap and dawn soap. Make sure the vent hole is surbmerged and then start ramming a cleaning patch down. You'll essentially create a water pump where you suck water up and flush it out of the vent hole. After a few times doing that the water will be jet black, replace the patch 2-3 times. Then I personally dump the water and fill it back up in the bath tub and add some soap and repeat with one patch. Run a dry patch or two and then oil barrel. Done and super easy. Makes cleaning a 44 inch barrel a breeze.

Osseon, with reference to quick barrel removal, are you referring to a barrel with a hooked breech and wedges, or a pinned barrel with a breech plug tang (or both)? I've just finished my first rifle with a pinned barrel and wondered if frequent removal of the pins would eventually loosen them.
Thanks.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Osseon, with reference to quick barrel removal, are you referring to a barrel with a hooked breech and wedges, or a pinned barrel with a breech plug tang (or both)? I've just finished my first rifle with a pinned barrel and wondered if frequent removal of the pins would eventually loosen them.
Thanks.

Yes it would - so no - don't do that....

 

[LME]

I was thinking that it might be worth trying electrolisis if you have a rust problem? I have used it many times to get the rust off of parts and tools. It works like a charm. It gets all the rust off not leaving any at all. I do wipe the parts to remove clinging rust but the rust isn't stuck to the metal at all.I haven't tried it on a rusted rifle bore but I can't see why it wouldn,t?

 

[Osseon]

Osseon, with reference to quick barrel removal, are you referring to a barrel with a hooked breech and wedges, or a pinned barrel with a breech plug tang (or both)? I've just finished my first rifle with a pinned barrel and wondered if frequent removal of the pins would eventually loosen them.
Thanks.

Yes it would - so no - don't do that....

If you do it right it won't, I was told this by a rifle maker, who is very experienced that he removes the pins every time to clean it. I just use a simple punch to tap it out half way and remove with my fingers. There is no damage being done.

 

[Griz44Mag]

If you do it right it won't, I was told this by a rifle maker, who is very experienced that he removes the pins every time to clean it. I just use a simple punch to tap it out half way and remove with my fingers. There is no damage being done.

Steel on steel and steel on wood sliding over each other - Wear will occur. I call BS on that one.
Without a layer of lubricant between them (think motor oil in engines, grease in wheel bearings, and so on) Even WITH lubricant - the parts still wear - just at a slower rate.
Yes - wear will occur - I have several older guns with pinned barrels - 2 of which required a pin size increase and a re-drill to tighten them back up.