Weighing charges

[hangman]

OK I tried a search for 'weighing charges" and all it gave me was everything on the forum. So I ask,"Who does this?" I load by volume and thought why not weigh it and see. A 90 grain charge weighed in at 64-66 grains after 5 different times on my RCB scale. So I started thinking( terrible thing for me to do) why not just weigh all my charges. I will have the same charge (by weight) every time. This should give me better shot groups down range...yes?? What are the pros and cons guys.

 

[roundball]

Well, one viewpoint is that when deciding to get into the more traditional side of muzzleloading, where powder charges are typically determined by a volume measure of black powder...not saying you 'shouldn't do it', just answering your question. For me personally, while I'll never be a purist, I intentionally leave weighing of charges over on the other side of the garage and just 'throw' my powder charges using a volumetric measure like Daniel did.

Blackpowder is not like IMR4064 where a few 10ths of a grain would make a difference at the target with a .30-06...however, I could probably load your ML with BP for you one time with 100grns Goex, the next with 96grns, the next with 104grns and I'd bet lunch you'd never know or see the difference at a 50yyd target...so while measuring with a volume measure may not seem as precise as using digital scales, it really doesn't make a measurable differece that you'd notice.

Also, it sounds like you must be measuring / weighing a substitute powder like Pyrodex or something...blackpowder volumetric measures are based upon / calibrated using real 2F black powder...they are built so that a 100grn volumetric measure of real black weighs 100grns weight.

 

[renovato]

Some of the hardcore target shooters weigh their charges as one method of keeping everything as consistent as possible. These same folks use drop tubes, scales to determine tamping pressure, etc. If you're not going to go to all that effort for absolute perfection, I don't think it's worth the trouble. I'm an accuracy fanatic and I've tinkered with weighing charges to see if it was worth it. I never could tell the difference. If you do your part keeping everything else consistent, throwing a charge seems to work just as well.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roundball has given a very good explanation for the difference in techniques. Volume measure works very well with PRB and with slow ROT rifle barrels. When you switch to faster Rates of Twist, or conicals, or both, you can begin to see variations in POI fast with modest changes in powder charges.

When it comes to throwing substitute powders, by volume, Each brand is different. For Pyrodex, for instance, a 100 grain volume load of black powder will throw only an 80 grain by weight charge of pyrodex. Each company publishes charts for its powder knowing that black power volume measures are set according to 2Fg Black Powder weights of powder. But they also caution the user that while their substitute is " bulkier", the table weights are approximate, and can vary, depending on your loading technique. Consistency in pouring your powder into your measure is very important.

What they are trying to do is give you the same velocity with the subs that you get using that volume of Black Powder. Pyrodex is suppose to weigh 25% less than an equal volume of Black Powder, for instance. But the company also recommends using hotter( magnum) percussion caps to ignite that powder, so you are going to get a bit more velocity using the magnum caps, all other things being equal.

Weighing powder charges is something seen done by the bench rest shooters, shooting long, heavy barreled rifles, conical bullets, and heavy powder charges. Sometimes you will see shooters weighing powder charges for the chunk gun matches, and any of the long range matches( over 100 yds.), whether bullets or balls are shot. For normal hunting ranges with Black Powder rifles, shooting patched round balls, volume measures are " close enough". The open sights are not going to allow you to shoot the difference between weighed and volume measured powder charges. Best wishes.

 

[jtmattison]

OK I tried a search for 'weighing charges" and all it gave me was everything on the forum. So I ask,"Who does this?" I load by volume and thought why not weigh it and see. A 90 grain charge weighed in at 64-66 grains after 5 different times on my RCB scale. So I started thinking( terrible thing for me to do) why not just weigh all my charges. I will have the same charge (by weight) every time. This should give me better shot groups down range...yes?? What are the pros and cons guys.

Were you weighing black powder or a substitute?

I weighed some charges once to see how accuate my powder measure was and a 90 grain volume charge weighed 90 grains on the scale.

BP or BP substitutes are not efficient enough to worry about a grain here or there so weighing is not necessary.

HD

 

[hangman]

I was weighing 777. I am out of Goex and have to go get some. I am shooting a .50 cal A&H with a 1:28 twist, 270 gr conical. I was just woundering if it was worth the effort or not to weigh the charge in. I think that I shall just KISS (keep it simple stupid) and through the charge in. So thanks for all the info guys. See you around.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

That's why you had such a large discrepancy between the powder measure and the weight you got: fake powders are lighter. Measuring the real powder by volume will work just fine.

 

[mike alexandre]

I weigh all my charges, short range,long range up to 1200 yds , percussion or flint. I try to take as many variables out of my shooting as possible which with a bit of luck leaves only me and the weather as a variable. If its not working then I know at least its not a variable powder quantity. I think that comes under kiss.

 

[Little Wattsy]

To me it just seem like an awfull lot of work for the little gained in accuracy...BUT what ever you chose is cool!

 

[Claude Mathis]

I did an Advanced search (in "Shooting Accessories" only), Boolean, for "weighing charges" and found these two.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/220417
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/213883

I also did the same type search for "weighing" and found these...
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/213844
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/208724
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/196865

 

[Vaino]

An accurate or hunting black powder load can be achieved w/o weighing.....just be consistent when pouring or tapping the powder measure. Seeing I also handload for the modern stuff, I've experimented w/ an adjustable measure as far as the rate of filling the measure, tapping or finger flicking and then accurately weighed the charges. Whatever method was used to settle the powder, if done the same each and every time, it's surprising how close the throws were. I don't weigh the charges and have satisfied myself that it's not necessary because a few grs. discrepancy of black powder doesn't generate a large pressure differential......Fred

 

[Rat Trapper]

I weight my charges of triple seven. This is the loads I use for serious shooting and hunting. With Goex or plinking with triple seven I load by volume. There is no way weighting charges can hurt anything other than take up some time.

 

[Ed Wingenroth]

Once more into the Breech !!! (pun intended)

As I read all the post’s, it became obvious that some were confused and gave advise on loading cased ammunition. Let’s clear this up and simplify the answer”¦

Ø If you’re a Hunter, by all means throw that load into the barrel and fire away !!!

Ø If you love to make hole’s in the paper, use any method to improve your shot and justify its cost..

Let’s go right to the target range.

In the olden day’s, Marksmen would “sift” their powder to remove the finer grains. If not, when they were poured down the long barrel, they would separate from the larger grains and create a hotter load and then depending on the consistency of the bulk, cause a real problem with the accuracy of the shot”¦

That was then, this is now”¦

Better methods of producing and storage of our newer powders have all but eliminated these powder problems so now we try to improve our procedure to offset our human error at the line.. Find a system that supports your personality and practice, prentice, practice”¦

Me, I use a 28” thin-wall wooden funneled tube in my 30” barrel to charge my load and I find the load consistency just fine”¦

Key word is “consistency”.

Ed”¦.

 

[Zonie]

I weight my charges of triple seven. This is the loads I use for serious shooting and hunting. With Goex or plinking with triple seven I load by volume. There is no way weighting charges can hurt anything other than take up some time.

I agree with your statement as far as it goes just as long as the person doing the weighing knows what he's working with.

If he is working with black powder then there is no problem but, if he doesn't know that the synthetic powders are lighter he could get himself in trouble.

Say he reads where someone who loads 120 grains of FFg into his gun really likes the results.
Then he gets out his 777 and weighs out 120 grains of it on his powder scale.

What he doesn't realize is that 777 weighs only 70 percent of the weight of real black powder*.
This makes his 120 grain actual weight load the equivalent of 156 grains of volumetrically measured black powder. (120 X 1.3 = 156)

To make matters worse, 777 powder is 15 percent more powerful than an equal volume of black powder*.
That makes his 156 grain equivalent load of 777 equal to 179 grains of real black powder. (156 X 1.15 = 179)

Faced with facts like these, a person ought to be able to see that measuring any black powder substitute on a powder scale can rapidly get them into some potentially serious situations.

Take ole' zonies advice, "Use a volumetric powder measure and be safe. Use your powder scale for those new fangled powders where the weight of a piece of fly scat makes a difference and most important of all, have fun."

* Based on Hodgdon Powder Co. data.

 

[ResearchPress]

To me it just seem like an awfull lot of work for the little gained in accuracy...

....but if one is a competitive target shooter then that "little gained" can make all the difference between winning a match or not.

David

 

[roundball]

Seems like there will always be a couple of schools of thought on this...some get into muzzleloading because they're interested in learning and utilizing some of the ways of the past...some inject modern techniques to try and modernize some of those ways to gain an edge over the original spirit of muzzleloading and never the two shall meet.
Some take on the challenge of Flintlocks but immediately start looking for something like a synthetic "duraflint" or a zippo lighter contraption to modernize the use of real stone flints so they don't have to bother learning about flint knapping for a Flintlock, which begs a similar question to the weighing...then why bother in the first place.

But bottom line, it's a hobby that can be / is enjoyed at different levels by different people's degree of interest, time, money, purpose, etc...whether a mass produced Flintlock is used with a coil mainspring in the lock, or a 200 year old original Flintlock is used, or a lefty shooting a righty or vice versa...at the end of the day none of all that really matters

 

[ord sgt]

I weigh all the powder charges for my Enfield rifles. Finally found the best shot group with 44 grs of Goex FFFg. One grain either up or down will throw a bigger group with the 500 gr Rapine minie that I use. It took several days at the range to finally set the right charge of powder. So, weighing powder for target shooting works for me.

 

[Sarge]

You saved me a bunch of typing, Zonie. "Plus One" on all you wrote from this camp.

I weight my charges of triple seven. This is the loads I use for serious shooting and hunting. With Goex or plinking with triple seven I load by volume. There is no way weighting charges can hurt anything other than take up some time.

I agree with your statement as far as it goes just as long as the person doing the weighing knows what he's working with.

If he is working with black powder then there is no problem but, if he doesn't know that the synthetic powders are lighter he could get himself in trouble.

Say he reads where someone who loads 120 grains of FFg into his gun really likes the results.
Then he gets out his 777 and weighs out 120 grains of it on his powder scale.

What he doesn't realize is that 777 weighs only 70 percent of the weight of real black powder*.
This makes his 120 grain actual weight load the equivalent of 156 grains of volumetrically measured black powder. (120 X 1.3 = 156)

To make matters worse, 777 powder is 15 percent more powerful than an equal volume of black powder*.
That makes his 156 grain equivalent load of 777 equal to 179 grains of real black powder. (156 X 1.15 = 179)

Faced with facts like these, a person ought to be able to see that measuring any black powder substitute on a powder scale can rapidly get them into some potentially serious situations.

Take ole' zonies advice, "Use a volumetric powder measure and be safe. Use your powder scale for those new fangled powders where the weight of a piece of fly scat makes a difference and most important of all, have fun."

* Based on Hodgdon Powder Co. data.

 

[ResearchPress]

Seems like there will always be a couple of schools of thought on this...some get into muzzleloading because they're interested in learning and utilizing some of the ways of the past... ......which begs a similar question to the weighing...then why bother in the first place.

Weighing charges is not a 'modernisation' of muzzle loading technique. This was certainly practised in Great Britain in the 19th century and original shooters bags survive with glass phials in compartments for pre-measured charges, as does other contemporary documentation. These were used by long range marksmen. They bothered, as do those of us who shoot the discipline today, because variations in powder charge will affect elevations at long range.

So, while it may have been practised in a specific discipline, it is nonetheless a valid traditional technique for improving accuracy on the target range.

David

 

[roundball]

Seems like there will always be a couple of schools of thought on this...some get into muzzleloading because they're interested in learning and utilizing some of the ways of the past... ......which begs a similar question to the weighing...then why bother in the first place.

Weighing charges is not a 'modernisation' of muzzle loading technique. This was certainly practised in Great Britain in the 19th century and original shooters bags survive with glass phials in compartments for pre-measured charges, as does other contemporary documentation. These were used by long range marksmen. They bothered, as do those of us who shoot the discipline today, because variations in powder charge will affect elevations at long range.

So, while it may have been practised in a specific discipline, it is nonetheless a valid traditional technique for improving accuracy on the target range.
David

Like I said, there will probably always be a couple schools of thought on this...and just as an additional thought, vials containing premeasured charges have been around a while but most importantly it doesn't mean they were "weighed" charges...just premeasured for the sake of convenience.

I use premeasured charge for the range every weekend and for hunting...glad to know they were used way back in the 1800's so people today might quit referring to premeasufred charges in vials as "speedloaders"
:thumbsup: