Weight vs Volume

[KentuckyMan]

I know this subject has been talk about a lot of times, but to me there is no single answer.

A lot of people use handy volume chargers to load their guns, but does what happens when you change your powder Granulation size. Then you need to adjust your power charge some way, or just get a charger that is rated for what size Granulate.

While if you use a weight scale then it doesn't matter, but you'll become the laughing stock of the day, if you drag any kind of sale out on the rang.. (because maybe to some it would be very unusual for someone to do that) But it's inconvenient if the weather were to turn bad for you. Of Course you can just pre make your loads at home, and insert them inside of paper cartage. Other wise if not,

Wind or light rain can spoil your load when ever your using a weight scale..

But what I want to know is that is it worth pre measuring your loads by using the weight scales; knowing that you will have a 100% accurate load.

Or just use volume charging tubes, spoons, or gun shells, etc... when you know if you change your gun propellant granulation you will not have an accurate load.. or your accuracy will be off by a percentage, like 20%, or 5 to 10% with whatever your charging volume method is rated for.


Sorry if the Question seems to be confusing. but which one would you use, and does it matter if your a little bit off on your loads?

 

[David W.]

I always use a powder measure (deer antler tip for hunting and brass measure with a funnel for the range) and tap it just a little with my finger. If you do this, you will see the powder settle down just a tad, refill it back to the top and load it down the barrel. I have tested this method (at home which keeps the chuckles down) and find extremely consistant charges. There is no need to weigh every charge, even if you were at Frienship in competion matches. It also does not matter if you are using FFg or FFFg. This tapping method will load the same weight in a fixed measure.

 

[necchi]

Most guy's use something like this;

You can use your scale if you like, then transfer that amount of powder to the adjustable measure and know exactly how much you get each time.
Or use the adjustable volume measure to determine your load variables until you find what works best for you.

Both the scale AND the adjustable measure work just fine, as long as you remember the amount of powder YOU use only pertains to YOUR gun.
OR
Find your load with your scale, then drill a 3/8 hole in a piece of wood (antler, bone, cane) deep enough to hold that amount of powder.
How pretty or not your home drilled volume measure is,,is up too you. :wink:

Git it?

 

[KentuckyMan]

Very good man! I see I don't need to buy a crazy scale.. Again thanks :thumbsup:

 

[KentuckyMan]

again! Very good! Thanks I have a good idea now! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[David W.]

What I have found is the amount of powder in the pan makes as much of a difference as the main powder charge. I use a trickle charger for the pan either the 3 gr. or the 4 gr. My rifle likes the 4 gr. charger. Every flinter is different.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Flintlock, I use the same method you do!
Great minds think alike! :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The guys at friendship who shoot long range bullet guns( slug gun shooters) try to control variables in everything. They are the only ones I KNOW that weigh their powder charges out at home on their scales, and place them in cylinders, to carry to the range. They also weight their bullets, measure their diameters, measure the thickness of their patch materials, often pre-lube their paper strips before the match, and keep the strips soaking in a bottle of their "secret formula" at the range. The have devices that allow them to use pistol primers instead of percussion caps on their large, heavy underhammer guns, to ignite substantial powder charges.

Everyone else, particularly those shooting off-hand, uses a volume powder measure to measure out their powder charges. I use an adjustable Powder measure similar to the one shown, but mine has a funnel attacked to the trunk of the measure to help put all the powder down the barrel. I have seen shooters at the line using their own, home-made volume measures that are fixed at one load. Some are made from antler, some from brass tubing( including cartridge casings, occasionally). :shocked2: :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[fitter]

not true

 

[necchi]

not true

I think what he means is the amount of powder in the pan (more or less) makes the pan "flash" better, and that I believe.

I had to read it a couple times, the amount of powder in the pan isn't going to affect the force or amount of pressure in the main charge, but a good flash will,,know what I mean?
A spontanious ignition vrs. a hang fire.

 

[hanshi]

BP has always been measured by volume and works fine that way. Volumes usually come very close to actual weight. Consistency is the key and it makes no real difference what the actual charge weight is. BP is very accommodating. I mostly use home made antler measures calibrated by using a brass measure.

 

[George]

It also does not matter if you are using FFg or FFFg. This tapping method will load the same weight in a fixed measure.

I'm with you on the tapping, been doing it that way for a long time. And you are right that it gives very consistent charges. Can't agree that it will give the same weight of 2F and 3F in a fixed measure, though. Finer granulation will always give you more weight, somewhere in the range of 5%-6% more in my tests.

Spence

 

[David W.]

It also does not matter if you are using FFg or FFFg. This tapping method will load the same weight in a fixed measure.

I'm with you on the tapping, been doing it that way for a long time. And you are right that it gives very consistent charges. Can't agree that it will give the same weight of 2F and 3F in a fixed measure, though. Finer granulation will always give you more weight, somewhere in the range of 5%-6% more in my tests.

Spence

I am not trying to start an argument, but I did many test myself between FFg and FFFg looking for a difference in weight and found none.

 

[David W.]

not true

I think what he means is the amount of powder in the pan (more or less) makes the pan "flash" better, and that I believe.

I had to read it a couple times, the amount of powder in the pan isn't going to affect the force or amount of pressure in the main charge, but a good flash will,,know what I mean?
A spontanious ignition vrs. a hang fire.

Maybe I should have elaborated a little more. Too much powder or too little in the pan is not good for consistant, fast ignition in MOST flintlocks. it in no way affects the velocity of a given powder charge.
There are many other factors affecting flash pan ignition as well including, but not limited to, touch hole placement, hole size, frizzen hardness, etc, but that is another area for discussion.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Grains are a unit of weight. Specifically there are 7000 grains to a pound. Grains are not a unit of volume. Just as teaspoons are a measure of volume, not of weight.

When we measure powder with a volumetric measure we are measuring a charge of x grains equivalent. In other words the measure has the same volume as would be occupied by a charge weighing x grains. Will that volumetric charge always weigh exactly x grains? Probably not...but it will be close enough for our purposes.

Measuring powder by volume is essentially a shortcut. It is not necessary to weigh a bp charge. Measuring by volume is much quicker and easier and is consistent enough for our needs.

 

[Twice boom]

I agree with you. The one thing I question is equal volumes of 2f vs. 3f .. To me at least it seems that I will be able to put more of the smaller granules in 1oz measurer than I would be able to put of the 2f type.. I think then that I am correct if I were to say you will get greater back pressure out of the 3f as you will get out of the 2f if the volumes are equal. You have to forget about the weight when you are measuring by volumes and think about what the differences of the burn rates are between the two types of powders. No?

Twice.

 

[David W.]

I agree with you. The one thing I question is equal volumes of 2f vs. 3f .. To me at least it seems that I will be able to put more of the smaller granules in 1oz measurer than I would be able to put of the 2f type.. I think then that I am correct if I were to say you will get greater back pressure out of the 3f as you will get out of the 2f if the volumes are equal. You have to forget about the weight when you are measuring by volumes and think about what the differences of the burn rates are between the two types of powders. No?

Twice.

FFFg burns quicker than FFg because of the size of the granule, not because of volume. The air space between the grains is extremely mimimal. FFFg has less surface area, therefore, a quicker burn rate and higher pressure.

 

[Twice boom]

Correct that is what I was implying. So if you were to use 1 0z volume of 3f instead of two you will have a greater burn rate which in turn will have greater power, or back pressure due to the FFF’s quicker burn rate. That's why I suspect using this example the weight of the two powders does not come in to play, just the burn rate is what one has to conceder when using one over the other with equal volumes .. Or am I wrong..?
. Now I know there is not much difference between ff and fff other than some guns preferring one over the other. ,But when does it become critical? What kind of results one should expect from substituting 1 oz volume of ff with ffff.. Or f with fff..
Thanks.
Twice

 

[David W.]

Correct that is what I was implying. So if you were to use 1 0z volume of 3f instead of two you will have a greater burn rate which in turn will have greater power, or back pressure due to the FFF’s quicker burn rate. That's why I suspect using this example the weight of the two powders does not come in to play, just the burn rate is what one has to conceder when using one over the other with equal volumes .. Or am I wrong..?
. Now I know there is not much difference between ff and fff other than some guns preferring one over the other. ,But when does it become critical? What kind of results one should expect from substituting 1 oz volume of ff with ffff.. Or f with fff..
Thanks.
Twice

When using FFFg, it is general rule of thumb to reduce the volume by 10% over FFg. That is because the finer the granulation will build up more pressure because of the faster burn rate. When using Swiss powder, the volume needs to be reduced by another 10%. That is because Swiss is more potent.

The only thing I tried to imply is that by volume, FFFg and FFg weighs the same. That is at least while weighing 100 gr on a RCBS powder scale. Some people think that a volumetricly despensed charge of FFFg will weigh more than the same volume of FFg. If that were true, why are there not powder measures that state "For FFg ONLY", or "For FFFg ONLY"? If it was that big of a problem, the manufacturers would probably place a warning label on the measures in order to avoid liability suits.

 

[trent/OH]

Well in any of my MLs I would expect a one ounce load to produce enough smoke to be visible from weather satellites, a rain of unburned powder granules which could ignite on subsequent shots, and a recoil which would discourage subsequent shots. :hmm: