weighting in on volume

[ResearchPress]

His shooting is pretty darned accurate sub MOA out to 1200 meters.

You may want to review your aspirations. No one is shooting sub-MOA groups at 1200 metres with a muzzle loading rifle. It’s not being done at half that distance. That’s smaller than the v-bull used on NRA(UK) centerfire target rifle competitions for tie-breaking.

David

 

[Trooper]

You may want to review your aspirations. No one is shooting sub-MOA groups at 1200 metres with a muzzle loading rifle. It’s not being done at half that distance. That’s smaller than the v-bull used on NRA(UK) centerfire target rifle competitions for tie-breaking.

David

I’ll double check his video. I could have misunderstood what he said.

 

[Trooper]

Ok so what is MOA at 1200 meters?
I understood a minute of angle is 1” at 100 yards; 2”at 200 yards; 3”at 300 yards etc. by my reasoning, 1MOA is 12.564” at 1200 yards.
Metric would be; 348 mm at 1200 meters that 34.8 cm or roughly 13- 11/16” . That’s over a foot circle. You’re telling me that it can’t be done with BP?

 

[Trooper]

I just acquired 3 lbs of Goex 2F to play with. After watching Idaho Lewis play with his TC Hawken rigs on his channel and on YouTube, I’ve decided to follow his lead and do my own comparison with weighed charges to volumetric charges with Goes 2F as the first group and Triple 7 2F as the second group.
I’m curious to see how these powders will do at 100 meters for grouping, volume vs weight. And for muzzle velocity, 5 rounds by volume and by weight, for both types of powder.
I’ll be using a 20 thou patch with TOW mink oil as a patch lube and an over powder .50”dia 1/8” thick felt wad. My balls will be .495 home cast of pure lead. The rifle will be rested on a beanbag and is a stock 1-48” twist barrel. The rear sight is a Williams FP tang site with the stock front blade sight.
I will clean the bore between shots for each test. I’m curious what powder performs better weighed vs volume in both powder classes.

 

[French Colonial]

Minute of angle is actually 1.047 inches at 100 yards.

Doesn't sound like much but it matters at distance.

 

[ResearchPress]

Ok so what is MOA at 1200 meters?
I understood a minute of angle is 1” at 100 yards; 2”at 200 yards; 3”at 300 yards etc. by my reasoning, 1MOA is 12.564” at 1200 yards.
Metric would be; 348 mm at 1200 meters that 34.8 cm or roughly 13- 11/16” . That’s over a foot circle. You’re telling me that it can’t be done with BP?

What I am saying is that to my knowledge no one is shooting sub-moa groups at 1200 yards with muzzle loading rifles.

You said regarding Idaho Lewis that "His shooting is pretty darned accurate sub MOA out to 1200 meters." That implies a group has been shot. I've seen IL's video where he took 7 shots to hit a 20" square plate once at 1202 yards, using a 95 grain charge of Swiss 2F. That was fine shooting with a new barrel and at an untried distance. If you are aware of his shooting a sub MOA group at 1200 yards, please point me where, as I have not seen it. Thanks.

The targets used for long range muzzle loading in Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB) matches and MLAIC international matches are the same as used by the NRA(UK) for mordern centrefire target rifle. They have a 24" diameter bull's-eye that scores 5. For tie-breaking there is a V-bull that measures 14.4" diameter. The same target is used at 800, 900, 1000, 1100 & 1200 yards (MLAIC do not shoot 1100 & 1200).

1 moa at 1200 yards is 12.6" - so smaller then the v-bull.
1 moa at 1000 yards is 10.5"

Course of fire at 1000 yards is 15 shots, so a maximum score of 75;
The MLAIC World Record with original rifle is 64.1
The MLAIC World Record with reproduction rifle is 68.4
The decimal is the number of v-bulls hit.

So, at 1000 yards the record holders were not holding the 2.3 MOA bull's-eye, and at best had 4 shots in the v-bull.

The record score in my clubs 1200 yard shoot (which I have won) is 51 x 75. The shooter did not get any of his 15 shots inside the 14.4" dia v-bull. I've won matches at 900-1200 yards, and never see anyone holding 2 MOA at those distances, let alone sub-moa.

David

 

[Trooper]

Yes you’re correct. I thought he was doing sub MOA and was mistaken. Anyway, it’s darned impressive considering I’m having trouble at 100 meters

 

[ResearchPress]

. . . . . it’s darned impressive considering I’m having trouble at 100 meters

If long range interests (the sport today or history), I have a lot of info on my web site - start here: Long Range Muzzle Loading.

David

 

[Trooper]

Thank you sir!

 

[Sparkitoff]

Volume is an amount of something that will fit into so many square inches. Take a shoebox. If you put cat crap in there until you can close the box flush and the content has light pressure on it, that's the same volume as putting wet conrete in the same box, or gold nuggets for that matter. The shoebox is YOUR powder measure. If you put X amount of whatever powder in there, that is a fixed volume with a reference (the # it says on it). You increase or decrease the volume by changing the size of your "shoebox" by changing the capacity up or down through "adjustment". Again, the numbers are for reference. 1 more or 5 more or 10 more. Of course, your shoebox is marked with numbers to give general parameters of grains equivalent or drams by volume. There is some leeway here. Two different measures may vary a wee bit, but it is almost indiscernible in results between two that are showing the same reading. That's the whole idea of volumetric. Of, relating to, or involving the measurement of volume. It is one volume within a container compared (systematically by marked increments) to a different container of the same stuff. Only, here you might not change the actual container, but rather make an adjustment to the size of the original one. Similarly, with two different substances like cat crap and concrete, or powder and shot, the amount that fills the same container is volumetrically "equivalent". When you use scale measurements, you are weighing to a prescribed amount. That's not volume at all. Black powder and equivalent in a muzzleloader is supposed to be volumetric.

 

[Trooper]

If long range interests (the sport today or history), I have a lot of info on my web site - start here: Long Range Muzzle Loading.

David

I'm on your website David, Thank you sir! wow! Thats a wealth of knowledge there!

 

[ResearchPress]

. . . When you use scale measurements, you are weighing to a prescribed amount. That's not volume at all.

Yes, measurement in grains. That is the unit of weight that black powder loads are most commonly found in. Volumetric measures are simply a quick and convenient way to dispense the approximate weight of powder required. For many purposes it is perfectly adequate.

Black powder and equivalent in a muzzleloader is supposed to be volumetric.

Since when?

Horatio Ross, Captain of the Scottish team for the Elcho Shield (long range match fired at 800, 900 & 1000 yards), writing in 1864 said: "Weigh every charge of powder carefully before going to the rifle range; for, unless you attend to this, your shooting will be irregular." Source: The Scotsman, 14 April 1864

David

 

[Trooper]

Yes, measurement in grains. That is the unit of weight that black powder loads are most commonly found in. Volumetric measures are simply a quick and convenient way to dispense the approximate weight of powder required. For many purposes it is perfectly adequate.


Since when?

Horatio Ross, Captain of the Scottish team for the Elcho Shield (long range match fired at 800, 900 & 1000 yards), writing in 1864 said: "Weigh every charge of powder carefully before going to the rifle range; for, unless you attend to this, your shooting will be irregular." Source: The Scotsman, 14 April 1864

David

That’s exactly what Idaho Lewis said. He gets his accuracy from weighing each and every charge and using a felt wad on top of his powder charge. The proofs in the pudding, his shots at great and short distance are a matter of record.

 

[ResearchPress]

That’s exactly what Idaho Lewis said. He gets his accuracy from weighing each and every charge and using a felt wad on top of his powder charge. The proofs in the pudding, his shots at great and short distance are a matter of record.

I’ve been competing in long range muzzle loading matches for 25 years, won many and set MLAGB National Records. Weighing powder charges is common practice for both muzzle loading and black powder cartridge rifle. It not new today and was done in the 19th century. It’s about eliminating variables.

David

 

[Sparkitoff]

Weighing a charge will give you the exact grains of the amount. Other than that one statement, all of the other comments and references to weight or weighing a charge are outside the original post....

 

[French Colonial]

If long range interests (the sport today or history), I have a lot of info on my web site - start here: Long Range Muzzle Loading.

David

Most excellent!