Were there really Navy 44s?

[gerryherd]

I know you can buy repro 1851 Navy revolvers in 44 cal now from a variety of sources, but back in the 19th century, did Colt ever really make a 44 cal 1851 Navy? I thought, for both Remington and Colt guns, the term "navy" was applied to 36 caliber models and "army" to 44 caliber, perhaps because of the preferences in caliber by those respective service branches.

 

[TNflintlock]

From all that I have read the 1851 Colt Navy was only in .36 but I could be wrong. It might just be that reproduction manufactures thought they would sell better in .44 than .36

 

[peashooterJoe]

I read several years ago that that in 1858 3 prototypes were made in the .40? caliber class on the 1851 frame.I think that was the year Remington bought the Beals patentand that they were working on a .44 model then. If I'm wrong somebody correct me and I wont't be offended.IMHO

 

[crockett]

To the best of my knowledge Colt made a few in house, experimental 1851's where the frame was cut for a rebated cylinder in 44 caliber. Theoretically you could argue your 44 "navy" was PC, you could say your persona was in Hartford and someone gave it to you, etc. I do not believe any of these 44 "navies" were produced for sale.

 

[TomFoolerythe3rd]

I have never seen or read about an original .44 cal Navy Colt. I always thought that the Navy was a scaled down version of the Dragoon (in particular the 3rd Model).

 

[mikelange]

If you're talking about production guns, the 1851 Colt was a .36 caliber only.

The "Army" and "Navy" designations weren't Colt's official terminology, but generic terms used to describe two distinct types of revolvers (regardless of manufacturer): .40+ caliber guns were "Army" or "Dragoon" models; those in the range of .34 to .38 were "Navy" or "Belt" models. And, to further confuse the issue, more "Navy" Colts, Remingtons, etc were used by both Union and Confederate Army personnel than by either of their naval forces.

A .44 caliber 1851 Colt, had such a beast existed, would have, by commonly accepted definition, been an "Army" revolver.

Info courtesy of "Flayderman's Guide To Antique American Firearms" and years and years of reading up on cap-and-ball revolvers.

 

[Zonie]

I liked my 1851 Colt .44 cal reproduction and became interested in finding out as much as I could about it.
Needless to say, I was to be disappointed because I found absolutly nothing to indicate that Colt had ever made a prototype of the 1851 in this caliber.
My research consisted of reading every book dealing with Colt guns in the Phoenix Public Library (big library although you have to order some of the books which are in storage) as well as buying and borrowing a number of books which the library did not have.

The deeper I dug, the more I came to realize that the Colt Dragoons were meeting the need for a revolver in this caliber so there was probably not a need for Colt to pursue this development until the Civil War.

Foolishly, I got PC fever and traded that gun away because "it is not historically correct".
As I said, this gun was excellent in every way and I've often wished I still had it.

As for the name "Navy", this didn't come from the Navy using the gun. It came from the engraved Texas Navy vs Mexican Navy Battle scene on the cylinder.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

As for the name "Navy", this didn't come from the Navy using the gun. It came from the engraved Texas Navy vs Mexican Navy Battle scene on the cylinder.

Quite true Zonie, folks now use the "Navy" designation for any .36 revolver, even Remingtons which were not so called at the time. Of course Cabela's comes up with some pretty creative names for everything, like "Army Police model snub nose". I want one of those to go with my "sporterized Hawken" :rotf:

 

[crockett]

Zonie: I too am sort of a 1851 nut. When I said "a few" experimental frame, I mean probably less than six total. I think there were some 1851 frames and they wanted to test out the idea of a rebated cylinder and larger caliber. In any event the book is around some where so give me some time( maybe a couple of weeks) when I find it I will post what I read and the source for those that may be interested. Generally a 44 "navy or 1851 frame with a 44 caliber isn't PC, I was just making a very remote case that theoretically someboby could claim their replica copied an experimental model although it is sort of a stretch at best. In any event I read it somewhere and I'll post when I find it.

 

[Zonie]

crockett: Thanks for the input. I would be interested in reading about it.

 

[Toomuch_36]

I know you can buy repro 1851 Navy revolvers in 44 cal now from a variety of sources, but back in the 19th century, did Colt ever really make a 44 cal 1851 Navy? I thought, for both Remington and Colt guns, the term "navy" was applied to 36 caliber models and "army" to 44 caliber, perhaps because of the preferences in caliber by those respective service branches.

I know a number of manufacturers make a model '51 Colt in .44 (brass frame only) that is dubbed "Reb model". The reasoning is that the South being less industrialized, and iron being in short suply, made revolvers in the 1851 pattern in .44 for more firepower to arm themselves. I don't know how historicaly accurate this is or whether it is just a marketing ploy.

Toomuch
..............
Shoot Flint

 

[pondoro]

Crockett - If you really want to argue a persona that got a prototype 44 caliber Navy then why not have him find it in a scrap bin behind Colt's factory in the 1850's? Then 100 years later his great grandson could do the same thing with a 44 magnum case behind Remington?

 

[crockett]

Ha ha, so true. Its a real stretch. I was trying to comfort poor gerryherd just in case he had his lil' ol' heart set on the .44 - that there was at least one really far flung case that could possibly be made that its PC but once again, pretty slim.

 

[Zonie]

Toomuch 36: Don't take this personally, but from what I've learned over the years, your comment is half right.
The Southern C&B manufactures made brass framed guns (except for a few rare exceptions).
The Southern manufactured guns were supposed to be copies of the 1851 Colt. Almost all of them were (except for the Spiller and Burr).
All of the Southern manufactured C&B revolvers were .36 caliber except for a few made by the Dance Brothers (Texas) which were made a .44 caliber. These Dance Brothers guns were Iron framed and did not have the recoil shield on either side of the frame.

When all is said and done, I think the places who sell these guns to us like to make up some history so their product sells better.

 

[Toomuch_36]

Toomuch 36: Don't take this personally, but from what I've learned over the years, your comment is half right.
The Southern C&B manufactures made brass framed guns (except for a few rare exceptions).
The Southern manufactured guns were supposed to be copies of the 1851 Colt. Almost all of them were (except for the Spiller and Burr).
All of the Southern manufactured C&B revolvers were .36 caliber except for a few made by the Dance Brothers (Texas) which were made a .44 caliber. These Dance Brothers guns were Iron framed and did not have the recoil shield on either side of the frame.

When all is said and done, I think the places who sell these guns to us like to make up some history so their product sells better.

Thanks for the info.
My favorite handgun of the confederacy is still the French built Le Mat.

Toomuch
............
Shoot Flint

 

[gerryherd]

Crockett, thanks for the concern on my behalf, but I wasn't looking for PC gun to equip a persona. I was mainly curious if there were, in fact, 44 Navies, or whether the modern repro gunmakers were just spinning yarns. I shoot a 36 flint pistol when I want to feel correct, and a Ruger OA in rare competitions. The only problem with the Ruger 44 (or, more correctly, 45, seems to me) is that at 25 yards the gun won't spread the 10 shots out enough for the bullet holes to be distinct and easy to count. It's okay at 50 yards, though. : )

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yeah, that can be a tough problem but don't worry, age will correct it, your age, not the gun's. :rotf:

 

[brubincam]

maybe some of the 36s were bored out to 44 if the riffling got shot out.... :blah: :rotf: :rotf: :blah: