What do I have?

[Whisper]

No it’s just a cheap mirror.

 

[Rudyard]

You've got us going ! certainly an interesting piece , What is the stamping on the lock all I can pick out is Warrented My guess is it is Belgium made but what if any proof marks do you see ?.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Whisper]

I just looked at everything again and “Warranted” and the elephant are the only markings on the lock. And the proof marks on the barrel are what is in my picture. The bore measures between.60 - .65”. The barrel is very thin and has been slightly distorted. Also there is some scoring inside the barrel that looks a little like rifling but it lacks consistency and no specific pattern. Maybe someone was shooting rocks because they ran out of balls. I’ve added a couple of pictures showing the brass trigger guard and a brass piece underneath the copper wrap.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Just too reiterate.
'Royal African Company' style lock stamp:

British commercial proof marks for a 22 Bore (gauge) barrel:

 

[Rudyard]

That pins it down I was thinking a Howda the box like ' saddle' but the castle makes more sense I had one rusted specimen beech stocked, mounts diminuative India pattern though with an extra mid pipe, All very involved to be just a normal 'Dane gun' even had a B 'net but a collector grabbed it before I got it to restock going by the remnant bit of stock. About 24 bore & I loaded it down with a dram of powder & the same amount of sawdust . shot grey squirrels with it .. Your 'scratches ' in the bore could be anything I've seen home loads of ball bearings that 'Rifled " streight internal AND external shapes !. & recall some local up by Kano (Nigeria )fined for shooting an Elephant with a 6" nail from a' Dane gun' .That they hold them by the left hand pulling the trigger & the right hand holding the butt stock speaks mute testimony to the tendancy to get burst barrels despite the array of amulets holding good 'Mooti' (Magic) items that festoon the barrels to ward off evil spirits who are wont to blow up such guns . ." Beware of the evil bight of Benin "" Where few come out ,Though many go in "A old reference to the unhealthy nature of those Equatorial regions . The over elaborate Gun I had I often wondered if it was to arm the tribe of Women 'Amazon' like warriors of Dahomey or there abouts .. Why do I expand on this wild coast ?. I wandered through it for 7 months in 1965 I was 20 it was my first overland trip you remember stuff like that when your shoe stringing about . Regards Rudyard

 

[RAEDWALD]

As an aside. The elephant and castle stamp originates not with the London district known a Elephant and Castle as a corruption of Henry VIIIs first wife the Intanta of Castille, who lived thereabouts, but rather with the sign of the Worshipful Company of Cutlers, which makes perfect sense for guns originally made as trade goods for the Company of Royal Adventurers Trading into Africa and their successors the Royal African Company and then the African Company of Merchants. The elephants probably coming from the use of ivory in knife handles.

The Coat of Arms of the Livery company

The sign outside the Livery Hall of the Company.

 

[516tcw]

Trade gun , probably has Belgium proof marks on bottom of the bbl. It’s right as rain and a very much neglected part of the trade gun collecting field
Only stop the active rust on the metal, but don’t touch the painted stock with anything abrasive. Once rust is removed from metal you may try a little Vaseline on a soft rag and rub down both metal and stock. I think you will be quite pleased on how it will look .
I know what most collectors would say , but if it’s safe enough for a baby’s behind, it’s safe for any metal or wood,
Please post photos when you get her cleaned up

 

[toot]

yes STOGERS, in the 1960's, they were origionally made for the AFRICAN TRADE, sent to the BELGEIN CONGO, for the natives to hunt with, and no problem of them uprising and taking over with these weapons. they also were made in percussion, I have 2 of them, one in 70 CAL, and one in 65 CAL, both smooth bores. basically shot guns.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Trade gun , probably has Belgium proof marks on bottom of the bbl. It’s right as rain and a very much neglected part of the trade gun collecting field
Only stop the active rust on the metal, but don’t touch the painted stock with anything abrasive. Once rust is removed from metal you may try a little Vaseline on a soft rag and rub down both metal and stock. I think you will be quite pleased on how it will look .
I know what most collectors would say , but if it’s safe enough for a baby’s behind, it’s safe for any metal or wood,
Please post photos when you get her cleaned up

I am curious as to why you expect there to be Belgian proof marks on the bottom of the barrel as well as British proof marks in their normal position?

 

[Rudyard]

Good point re proofs and if British Company marked Belgium might or not fit as origin for some (But King Leopold so abused the Congo it was no supprise they turned on the whites so savagely in 1965 ). & could be Congo as one market but that was divvid up between France & Belgium the latter with the help of Henry Morton Stanley or 'Bulla matary ' Breaker of rocks ' And heads ( Not much of a diplomat.) Mary Kingsley solo Victorian traveller alone though these regions had no troubles she couldn't handle and didn't need cases of Remingtons to get though any difficulties . She lies in High gate cemetery. I once had to camp there one night ..Nr Karl Marks .
as I found out next morning.
Rudyard

 

[516tcw]

I have a trade gun marked Barnett and it has British proof on bbl, and Barnett 1833 on lock. With Belgium proofs on bottom flat of bbl. The natives worldwide knew and trusted British marked guns.
The trade company knew they could get the weapons manufactured by Belgium firms for a lesser expense to the trade company. The Belgium firms would mark their products anyway the companies wanted them marked .
Belgium supplied Spanish style Barrels to America before the Rev. War, but that’s for another discussion.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I once had to camp there one night ..Nr Karl Marx as I found out next morning.
Rudyard

Should you need to repeat the experience I can recommend the patch near Jacob Snider as quieter.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I have a trade gun marked Barnett and it has British proof on bbl, and Barnett 1833 on lock. With Belgium proofs on bottom flat of bbl. The natives worldwide knew and trusted British marked guns.
The trade company knew they could get the weapons manufactured by Belgium firms for a lesser expense to the trade company. The Belgium firms would mark their products anyway the companies wanted them marked .
Belgium supplied Spanish style Barrels to America before the Rev. War, but that’s for another discussion.

A lot of British makers imported cheap Belgian barrels for their cheap end guns. If it has Belgian proofs then I would expect it to be just the barrel. Actually not a few quite good British guns had Belgian barrels and it was a sore point with some.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Raedwald Karl Marks companions whern't 'A very lively lot.' I figured dead men don't bite so paid them no heed, any old port in a storm .No body in their right mind would be wandering round a grave yard at night anyway
.516tcw Welcome to the forums you seem a worthy scholar of arms I came by a liege proofed barrel 37" long oct to round swamped smooth bored thick walled barrel in Virginia last trip, No crown above the oval well worn, just one loop for a half stock evident it had soldered saddle pipes these may have obscured the old loops if there where any .Has quite fine threaded plug seemingly a scelp brl . Your mention of early exports of brls to US is interesting A good barrel is a good barrel chose who made it .
Regards to you both . Rudyard

 

[516tcw]

Rudyard, thanks for the welcome. Have seen a few old weapons in my 80 years on top of the ground. Have collected muzzle loaders since seeing Davey Crockett on Walt Disney in the late 50’s.
I will share what ever knowledge I feel will be useful to the forum. I will give it freely, i do believe as Sherlock Holmes in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s , A Study In Scarlet
said “It is a Capital Mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment.”

Bob

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Bob . Any man who can quote Sherlock Holmes must be a literate fellow , & 80 years interest must give you a good knowledge of the antigue arms .. Though I cant spell worth a hoot I do have some acquired knowledge and readily pass on info to any ' student of arms' who writes for the benefit of us all Like D W Bailey, David Harding , Adrian Roads, David
,Baker or Wal Winfer ..since we all benefit in the process . Adrian is Chiss Roads Nephew very much the next generation of worthy authers . Do you know much about the 1839 & 42 pattern Lovells arms ? .
Regards Rudyard