What do y'all think of Caywood's prep of optimum patte

[LHolden]

"Working up turkey loads for optimum pattern density.

In reading about recommendations for loading shot in smoothbores, we often come across references to the use of fiber wads, felt wads and heavy over-powder cards. Far be it from us to pretend that we know it all when it comes to shooting shot loads. However, it seems to be clear and reasonable when you stop and consider this; if the component over the powder is heavier than any individual shot pellet, it is very possible that the heavy component will overtake the shot charge after it leaves the muzzle and hit it. This quite often results in splotchy patterns or donut hole patterns. Sound familiar? If you've suffered this occurrence, here is a loading tip that might help put a longbeard on the table. This pertains to cylinder bore guns, but can be used in choked guns also. We recommend using only over-shot cards on the POWDER charge, if you want a tight pattern . The reason is that the light cards, say 3 or 4, seal the gases upon ignition and as they exit the muzzle, being light, they don't follow the charge and disturb it. They tend to go to the sides and leave the charge flying straight. If you desire a tight pattern for turkeys, purchase either nickel-plated, copper-plated, bismuth or any other HARD shot (not steel) of your choice. The reason for hard shot is this. If a round pellet stays round, it will fly straight. And by extension, 500 round pellets will fly straight if they stay round. When they get flattened or mis-shaped by the crush of the powder igniting, they will not fly straight and you will get many flyers. Bismuth may be the best because it is almost as dense and heavy as lead shot and almost as hard as steel. So it has the penetration of lead, but stays round for true flight to the target.

The suggested loading procedure for maximum pattern density is this;

Using your shot dipper as a powder measure, pour down a set amount ( example; 1 1/8 oz of volume for a 20 ga.), then seat 3-4 overshot cards on the powder to pack it and push out any air. Then take a single overshot card and push it down the bore approx. 3 inches. Now, take that same volume of shot, as used for the powder measuring, and drop it down onto the card where it will be visible. Then take a dipper full of cornmeal muffin mix ( not straight corn meal) and drop onto the shot. Tap the side of the barrel ( keep head and eyes from in front of muzzle!) until the shot works it's way to the top and the cornmeal has worked down into the shot charge. This will provide a buffering element so that when the powder ignites, the shot will push against the meal not the other shot pellets. Then place one overshot card on the shot load and seat it on the powder. The reason to use the muffin mix and not the straight corn meal is that there are sugars and fats added to the mixture that aren't present in the straight corn meal. Apparently, these pack somewhat and allow the charge to be bunched up for short distance from the muzzle, helping to give you a great pattern. We recommend using no. 7 or 7 1/2 size shot for turkeys for the pattern density. These size pellets will penetrate a gobbler's skull at 26-28 yards which is about as far as one should shoot at a turkey with a cylinder bore gun anyway. If this load does not give you a good pattern, try using one less increment of powder as thrown by your shot charger, so that you are using just a little more shot . If you are using choked guns, you can go to the bigger shot sizes. By all means experiment with your gun to see which loads pattern best for THAT PARTICULAR GUN. Sometimes, a gun will throw a better pattern when LESS shot and powder are used. And by using the corn muffin mix when you shoot a turkey, the bird is already smoked and breaded and ready for the frying pan when you pick it up. "

 

[Rifleman1776]

The concept of using light cards under the shot sounds logical to me. The muffin mix thing is something I will not even try. Downside, as I see it, is the loss of a scrubbing wad (thick felt lubed) between shots. Far be it from me to say Danny Caywood is incorrect. He is probably the most experienced and knowledgable smoothie shooter in Arkansas. As for me and my smoothie, only much more shooting will show what works for me.

 

[BrownBear]

I've never had the donut/ragged pattern problem they describe unless I'm pushing velocity. Long as the measure of powder is equal to or less than the measure of shot, it's been a non-issue. That's in 20, 12 and 11 gauge.

Good news for me, because the lubed fiber wad is sure a lot easier to handle with cold fingers or gloves. I have enough trouble handling one overshot card, much less 4 or 5. I figure in order to get that many cards into the bore, I'd have a dozen more on the ground.

 

[tg]

I wonder how the shape of the op card plays into the equation, it may have more air resistance and bring other laws of physics into play, like when two objects of different weight will hit the ground at the same time if droped at the same time from the same level..try it with a marble and a feather??

 

[George]

.... like when two objects of different weight will hit the ground at the same time if droped at the same time from the same level..try it with a marble and a feather??

Like this?

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap111101.html

Spence

 

[paulvallandigham]

The IDEA of using OS cards over the powder was introduced here by Iron Jim Rackham, a former member of this forum, more than 4 years ago. Its not new. He put off-center holes in the OS cards, so that air would escape easily, going either thru the powder and out the nipple or TH, OR by escaping out the hole in the cards. To prevent small birdshot from escaping, he aligned the cards in the bore in opposite directions, so that the holes were never in the same line.

If you can count coins in change, pushing one coin at a time out of your hand with your thumb, you will have no problem loading OS cards into the barrel, without dropping them, cold hands or warm ones.

The off-center hole in the cards also makes the cards more unstable when they leave the muzzle, so that they drop away from the line of SHOT quicker.

Iron Jim used a Pellet of Wax/Oil lube between his 3rd and 4th OS cards on top of the powder, so that seating the 4th card squeezed the pellet out to help evenly spread lube to the walls of the bore when the gun was fired.

I prefer to have the Barrel lubed in front of the Shot load, to prevent lead from rubbing off onto the bore, and leaving lead streaks that build up with every shot fired. So, I run a lubed cleaning patch down the barrel(s) of my guns after seating the final OS cards on top of the load of shot. I carry these greased cleaning patches in separate plastic "baggie" in one of my hunting vest pockets.

I don't particularly enjoy having to use a bronze brush, with modern lead solvents( Petroleum Distillate) to remove those lead deposits from my MLing shotgun. I concede that if you are only shooting at a Turkey, you won't do a lot of reloading, and lead streaking will be at a minimum.

However, the lead pellets on the outside of the shot load will get flats on them, causing them to NOT BE ROUND. That makes them fliers, and that runs counter to what the use of Corn muffin mix as a "BUFFER" within the load of shot is all about.

The other experiment worked up here by two of our members, and tested by several others, is the use of fabric( mattress ticking) shotcups, soaked in vegetable oil, or Ballistol, to protect the shot. The first description tried using a single strip of fabric, wide enough that the width of the fabric covered the circumference of the bore when seated in the muzzle to receive the shot. As done above, an OS card was run down the barrel to act as a platform to hold the fabric into a cup shape.

Later, members have tried using 2 strips of fabric, loaded cross-wise, so that they over lap and protect the Edges of the fabric. This also delays the opening of the fabric cup when it leaves the muzzle, tightening patterns more.

The oil in the fabric cleans the bore after the last shot, and leave a film of oil on the barrel to protect it from rust in the field( important for turkey hunters in particular), while lubing the bore so that fouling will be soft after the next shot is fired. As this technique Gives the Shooter 3 BENEFITS over the traditional way that shot is loaded into the barrel, ITS WORTH DOING.

The fabric cups, and OS cards also solve the problem of loading any MLing shotgun that has muzzle chokes-either fixed or screw-in. Unlike Hard OP wads( thick)and harder plastic shot cups, the fabric cup can be formed with a forming "stick" in the muzzle without regard to the amount of choke at the muzzle. You can also consider using pre-lubed wool Wonderwads over the powder if you insist. Use at least 2 of them to get a better seal against the gases.

Finally, some members have also experimented with putting stiff "collars" inside the fabric shotcups. These can be made from index card stock, or any other cardboard you have on hand. The width of the strip of card stock will reflect the height of the column of shot used in your gauge shotgun. The length needs to be only long enough to complete a circle inside the bore(cup), with a little overlap.

The point of using the collar is to FURTHER delay the opening of the shot column in the air after leaving the muzzle, after both Strips of Fabric peel back and leave the shot in flight. The further the distance that the shot remains together in flight, the tighter the pattern will be at a given distance.

I think Caywood has offered its customers some fine advice, but we are still way out in front of Caywood on this forum. :grin: :hatsoff: :hatsoff: As usual.

My personal compliments go to all the members here who have risked deviating from the "norm", and have tried innovation in techniques.

But, before any of us get swelled heads, Alcan made plastic shot cup inserts, as well as plastic collars back in the 1950s. It simply never caught on, as the plastic wad/cups that succeeded those ideas were so much quicker to load. My late friend, Jim Gabbard, Jr. had some of the Alcan plastic insert cups, and gave me samples, so I have seen and held them personally.

I tried to copy the plastic cup design on cardboard, tracing it on the board, and then cutting it out using a Exacto knife, but the cardboard was too thick, and my finished version didn't want to fold where it should have.

So, we all should understand that there is really NOTHING NEW when it comes to shooting shot loads or MLing shotguns. Just ideas that need to be revisited from time to time using different materials, and mixing other ideas to make them work better-- like that off-center hole in the OS cards made with an awl, or a nail. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hmm: :hatsoff: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[wattlebuster]

IT WORKS. I have a 12 ga english game gun that he jug choked for me an I tried using the wads an they were blowing my patterns very bad. I tried his advise with an without the muffin mix an both ways gave me very good patterns. Im very happy with the loads :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

An interesting post. I have used cornflour, cornmeal, grits and Cream of Wheat as a sealing agent on top of my powder charges in rifles but have never used any of them in my shotgun or fowler. I have a new (to me) product called Puff Lon which is a filler material that I have used quite successfully on top of my powder charges in several of my rifles to improve the consistancy of the MV. It works.....wonderfully. I recorded the data for one of my rifles in case anyone doubted my word. I had not thought of using it as a filler in either my shotgun or my fowler. Intuitively, I know it will work just fine but I don't have any data to prove it. Now you have given me another fun project. I'm thinking of using a bit of toilet paper or wasp nest on top of the powder followed by some Puff Lon. Then add the shot charge directly on top of the Puff Lon followed by some Puff Lon worked down into the shot. Seems like it ought to work and give tighter patterns. My next experiment will be to make a shotcup of fabric or rolled paper in addition to the aforementioned loading procedure. I'm looking forward to some fun gathering data on this experiment. Has anyone else out there tried either of these experiments with Puff Lon?

 

[Skychief]

Well, well....another advocate of muffin mix for denser patterns!

I feel vindicated. :blah:

Skychief. :haha:

 

[LHolden]

thanks so much for this forum history lesson on the subject. good to have some one aboard who remembers past discussions, so lessons the chances of re-inventing the wheel. But some good food for thought here.
I get what, compared to modern shotguns, are terrible patterns with my Centermark fusil, and hadn't thought till now of how to improve it further beyond all the variations I tried early on with amounts of powder vs. #6 shot.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've been wondering where that nonsense comes from. :haha:
He mistakenly believes that if a wad is "heavier" than a single pellet of shot then said wad will outrun the pellets, "shooting a hole through the pattern".
Ridiculous! A few moments with a powder scale will reveal that even a single 12 gauge over shot card weighs more than a single pellet of #6 shot. It isn't weight that matters but density, lead is far more dense than any fiber wad. That is why the wad falls to the ground some 15-20 yards from the gun while the shot continues to fly for 150-200 yards.
Many high speed photos have been published which show shotgun loads at various distances from the muzzle. They clearly show the wad drops behind the pellets within inches of leaving the muzzle and it never catches up, not unless the "wad" is made of lead.
A long wad, say 1/2", may disrupt the shot column just as it leaves the muzzle. During that micro second when the shot has exited but the wad is still being driven by residual gas pressure it is pushing on the rear of the shot column which is no longer confined within the bore and thus the pellets are scattered. That is most likely to occur with heavy loads which retain more residual pressure at the muzzle and with long wads such as the 1/2" fiber wads. Many people have found improved patterns by just using shorter wads or one half of a longer wad.
The fiber wads are useful to lubricate the bore and keep fouling soft. They do not, however, contribute anything beneficial to pattern quality.
V.M. Starr wrote many years ago that he had never found patterns better than that obtained with just two hard card wads between powder and shot. Mr. Starr was punching his wads from poster-board 3/32" thick. I use commercial wads 1/8" thick and believe just one of those to be sufficient. I also split one for use over the shot so that I need only buy and carry that one type of wad.
I find it far easier to deal with one 1/8" unmodified wad rather than punching holes in and seating four or five overshot cards but of course that will work as well if you don't mind the bother.
I will also mention that with choked bores I have never had any trouble in getting patterns consistent with the degree of choke regardless of the wads used.

 

[BrownBear]

At last!

Some common sense in the Land of Blarney and Balderdash!

Thanks Joe! :bow:

 

[Rifleman1776]

What you say makes a lot of sense. In fact, it falls into the "duh" category. I haven't used shot yet in my fowler but when I was using my Brown Bess I always found it akward to fumble with three different kinds of wads, and one of them wet and/or sticky. As for use of cups or whatever I simply do not consider their use. We are shooting old style guns folks. To a great extent most of us try to do things the old way for the joy of recreating experiences of the past. Use of things plastic turns me off for ml activities. When I want to do that I take the suppository guns out of the safe and use those.
Thanks for putting things in perspective. :thumbsup:

 

[matt denison]

" During that micro second when the shot has exited but the wad is still being driven by residual gas pressure it is pushing on the rear of the shot column which is no longer confined within the bore and thus the pellets are scattered."

Ezzzactly!

:thumbsup: :bow:

 

[paulvallandigham]

JOe: you are right, to a point. I still meet people all the time who get their loading information out of the back of the Dixie Gun Work Catalog, and are using those 1/2" thick "cushion wads". Then, to to add to the problem, they use a liquid lube to grease these cushion wads, increasing the weight of the wad substantially.

I have done this, and found Large HOLES where the cushion wads penetrated my patterning paper at 25 yards, and more. It was unexpected, to say the least.

Comparing these cushion and OP wads to modern plastic combined wads and shot cups, as to their performance on leaving the barrel is also a bit different. The modern "shot cup" has cuts in the sides of the cup, that create wings still attached to the base " wad", so that when the wings open up, they act as an air brake, stopping the heavy combined wad/cup much quicker. Even then, however, its not unusual to find the shot cups on the ground in front of a Trap house, when firing from the 16 yard line.

We don't have those "air brakes"-- altho making fabric cups will create them--- when using fiber or wood OP wads, and paper OS cards.

I agree that you get rid of the " bumping " problem mentioned by simply reducing the size of your cushion wad, and only oiling/greasing the edge of this shorter wad before loading it.

I happen to like what happens when just using the OS cards for everything. They flutter to the ground inside 10 yards unless there is a tail wind. Since I have a cleaning jag on the front of my ramrod, its no problem to run a pre-lubed cleaning patch down and out my shotgun barrel after I have seated the OS card(s) on top of my shot load, to lube the barrel.

Since I don't believe in "Speed loading" any MLer- rifle, pistol, or shotgun----- I don't worry about time. I always have a terry cloth towel in my pocket or clipped t my belt to wipe my hands on. I carry additional paper towels in one of the cargo pockets on my hunting vest to wipe the gun and ramrod. I have a plastic bread wrapper in one pocket to carry the trash, and the pre-lubed patches are carried in another separate bag - usually in my hunting pouch.

Back in the late 19th century, and the first half of the 20th century, when bag limits were first placed on water fowl, hunters still using MLs carried more than one loaded gun in their blinds for fast follow up shots. Today, taking the time to properly load a shotgun to get maximum performance out of protect shot cups is NOT new at all, and doing so is in keeping with tradition.

We know that wire mesh, wool, leather, and paper were used to make protective covers for shot columns. They had fabric, and there should be very little doubt that it was used, considering its common use to protect powder charges, and shot charges in cannons of the period. It may have been canvas that was used, but mattress ticking does not violate the spirit of the period.

People are free to do as they wish, of course, but discouraging others from trying to improve their patterns by using ideas that have been around for centuries is wrong.

I have a lot of problems with people using Plastic wads in any muzzle loader, but that is my problem, and do not impose the same thoughts on others. Plastics are clearly 20th century products, and I don't feel they are appropriate for traditional Mlers. But, all natural fibers and materials that were available to hunters back then are fair game, IMHO.

 

[Jason Lewis]

i'm with joe on this one, the use of a cushion wad is highly gun dependent. case in point, my 20ga fowler loves a 1/2" cushion wad lubricated with a thin lubricant, over an OP card. my Wm Moore 13ga SxS however will blow holes in patterns all day with the 1/2" wads, it prefers the 3 OS cards then a 1/4" lubed cushion wad.

BUT, with either wads i can shoot all day long with minimal cleaning at worst.

 

[Wayne/Al]

I agree with CJ on this for sure. when I got my 12 Ga SxS Pedersoli,I tryed everything you can imagine to get a decent pattern and didnt have any luck untill I found Mr Starr's writing about muzzleloading shotguns. I followed his method all the way down to spiting down the barrel and finaly started getting some nice patterns.

I cut my wads from poster board that is.050" and use two over powder and one over the shot. I have started useing a thin felt wad with lube instead of spiting down the barrel.I put the lubed wad on top of the overpowder wads.
I am happy with results.

Wayne/AL

 

[BrownBear]

...I tryed everything you can imagine to get a decent pattern....

That's the key. There are no rules that work on all guns all the time. That's for computers and not for guns. Each gun is different and going to like what it likes and not like what it doesn't like. Only way to find it is to shoot rather than read.

 

[Mike Brooks]

JOe: you are right, to a point. I still meet people all the time who get their loading information out of the back of the Dixie Gun Work Catalog, and are using those 1/2" thick "cushion wads". Then, to to add to the problem, they use a liquid lube to grease these cushion wads, increasing the weight of the wad substantially.

I have done this, and found Large HOLES where the cushion wads penetrated my patterning paper at 25 yards, and more. It was unexpected, to say the least.

Ever been to a National match at Friendship? You are telling 98% of the trap and skeet shooters there they don't know what they're doing. Virtually ALL of them are using a lubed cushion wad, either fiber or felt. Those are the guys that I learned to load shot guns from, those that are actually shooting and getting real results.

 

[tg]

Nearly all the people I know who use the cushion wads cut them in half, I don't use them much, finding just an op card to work well enough for me I likley have to wipe the bore more often but I do not do a lot of scattergunnining so it is not an issue, what little patterning I did looked better without the whole heavily lubed cushion wad compared to just an op card or even wasp nest or wool wadding twixt the powder and shot, my limited trials seem to me to indicate that the ratio of the shot weight to powder load is the biggest factor in the pattern variations IMHO, but again I have not spent a lot of time patterning as shots under 20 yds usually more like 10-15 are the norm for my limited Squirrel/Grouse/Quail shooting so I have no real reason to tighten things up anymore than what a normal open bore gun provides.