What do you think?

[Fullstock58]

It’s hard for us in the modern world to relate to our forefathers everyday challenges. Often we read about barrels of there rifles had to be rebored to a bigger caliber or freshened out. Now I know they shot there rifles a great deal but I would think that shooting alone would not ware the barrel out so fast. I think that lack of cleaning quickly after shooting and just rust in general from being toted everyday in all types of weather may have taken a bigger toll on the rifling. It not like they could clean there rifles like we do after every shooting session, They may had to wait several days to do a good cleaning, maybe until it was safe to do so.
I wonder how they cleaned and how thorough they cleaned, it seems to me living on the go in the outdoors one would just wipe the barrel with a patch after shooting until they could find the time to do a better job, and we know that Blackpowder starts corroding real fast so just a wiping would leave a lot of corrosive fouling in the bore”¦.just some thoughts.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

my thoughts exactly, I saw 3 original C&B rifles last week at a rock-hound shop that belonged to the owners dad. one of 'em had been re-lined and the other 2 had rough bores. I've often figured that after firing a shot or 2 while hunting that the frontiersman would wet patch the bore until near clean then dry and reload and wipe the barrel well with patch lube to hold back rust.

 

[Many Klatch]

A friend of mine had that exact question in mind when he started his experiment with his gun "Rust-Away". Rust-Away was a .54 calibre. Lizard wanted to know how much bad treatment a barrel could withstand as to lack of cleaning before it became inaccurate. At this particular time, he was shooting up about 100 pounds of powder a year and was shooting every day. Rust away was never cleaned and put up, it was only cleaned if the crud ring got too hard to push a ball past.

Lizard used precut patches that he bought in packets of (I think I remember this part correctly) 250 per bag. Whenever he opened a new bag he threw the paper label into a box. Rust-Away had about 40,000 shots through it when the rifling finally wore out to the point where it was throwing a flyer every 3rd or 5th shot. He finally got a new barrel for Rust-Away and cut up the old barrel for spacers on his Harley.

Lizard set a couple of National records with Rust-Away, before the barrel finally gave out on him.

The lesson that I learned from this was that if you shoot every day, keeping a gun scrupulously clean is not important. Also, these barrels are a lot more resistant to failure than any of us realize. I clean my guns after every shoot, but I wait until I get home, I see no need to clean on the range. If I get a little gray scum on a patch on a gun that hasn't been shot in a while, I just run another oily patch down the barrel, I don't bother recleaning and reoiling.

I don't know whether the hand hammered barrels of yesterday were more or less corrosion resistant. But I would imagine that they were comparable.

Many Klatch

 

[howlingwolf]

One thing that hasn't been thought of yet...the metal in the barrel. Their metals were no where near as good as ours today. There was no chrome moly steel in those days. Your metal became steel when you heated in a forge full of charcol. The heat forces the pores of the metal open, the charcol adds carbon into the metal and you now have carbon steel. In addition to rust, which is absolutly valid, you have to think about the metal itself wearing faster than any of our modern barrels.

 

[Mad Monk]

Gunsmith,

From experience in working in a chemical plant where machinery was subject to chlorine and acetic acid fumes.

One evening a crew cleaned a bag house in a large dust collector. The last guy out slammed the door and dogged it down. There was this very loud crashing sound. The catwalk had broken free and fell two stories in the dust collector. The stainless steel brackets supporting the catwalk had broken.
They were replaced with wrought iron brackets. The engineers found that wrought iron is far more corrosion resistant than stainless steels which had been used.

Viewing it from 19th century powder making.
During the 1800's the powder companies produced their own high-purity saltpeter from raw saltpeter imported from India. When you read writings from the powder industry at that time you see comments that they purified the saltpeter to a state of purity where you could not find any chlorides in it.
By around 1900 that was a thing of the past. The powder companies purchased potassium nitrate in a nearly pure state.

When you get into more recent powder production you see potassium nitrate produced from potassium chloride and in some sources you see small amounts of potassium chloride being carried over into the finished product.
Since 2000 we now have powders where there is almost no detectable amount of chloride present.

With any brand of black powder you will have potassium carbonate as a solid product of combustion left in the bore. Potassium carbonate is also known as potash. By itself films of bore fouling containing potash will promote a uniform surface rusting given a certain range in humidity. Very little humidity and there will be no rust. Very high humidity and there will be no rust. In a certain range of humidity you will get a very thin uniform layer of rust on the surface of the metal. If there is any measurable amount of chloride in the bore fouling you can expect to see extensive and deep pitting in the bore. Chlorides are noted for pit corrosion.

The grades of steel now normally used to produce ml barrels are not for being some of the least corrosion resistant alloys.

In looking at this subject historically it is a mixed bag of factors.

 

[Leaky Roof]

I think this is a very interesting topic! I don't know much about history or metallurgy, but I think people are people no matter when or where they live. Today, for example, some folks just simply take better care of thier things than others, such as houses, cars, and other items of everyday necessity. I would like to think that the folks who went before us in ages past were different, but my gut makes me doubt it. This is my uneducated nose sticking into a subject that really facinates me. Thanks fellas.

Leaky Roof

 

[Coot]

Good point, Leaky Roof. I have guns that I have owned & shot for 30 years that still look almost new others get drug thru the woods & look old at a few years. Re the old original ones, I think that they cannot be compaired to most of todays guns. Wrought iron is more rust & corrision resistant than most modern steels. It is also softer & more plastic. I suspect that for working guns, cleaning was less rigorous than today but that the softer barrel wore much faster.

 

I think people are people no matter when or where they live. Today, for example, some folks just simply take better care of thier things than others, such as houses, cars, and other items of everyday necessity.

I agree. I am curious tho', when it come to how well someone looks after thier house, where on the scale would someone with the handle "Leaky roof" fit in? :grin:

 

[Jac Spring]

Well, this made me think of several things. One, the steel/iron used was much more porous than those used today and so would most likely "season" with use. Right? That would tend to help extend their useful life.

And of course, for the caplocks, they were using corrosive primer compounds - from what I've read, this was the primary cause for trouble in the original caplock rifles. The powders used weren't corrosive at all - just hygroscopic or moisture attracting, but the caps were really bad and could do a barrel in pretty quick without good care.

The flintlocks apparently didn't have this problem and can still be found in good condition, unlike the caplocks that came after.

I would be willing to bet that if you just swabbed with a good powder solvent, some dry patches and then some lube patches after shooting - and that's it, that you wouldn't have to worry about rust at all. May not be the way to best accuracy, allowing lube build-up, but shouldn't rust. Just my opinion so far in my own learning curve.

 

[Leaky Roof]

:rotf:

I guess I had it coming, Cody! Very clever. Actually my handle comes from railroading (boxcar roofs). But, now that we mentioned it, who has time to take care of such insignificant things as houses anyway? :winking:

Leaky Roof

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Hello and welcome to the Forum . In my world, there is two kinds of cleaning a rifle. The first, more traditional one is to clean it so it won't rust and is meant for the gun to be put in a safe, hung on the wall, etc. This is clean enough to sell the gun without getting beat-up on the price.

The second is to make the rifle "seviceable". By this term I mean it's not going to rust, it maintains it's accuracy and ignition will occur when you squeeze the trigger. The first thing most hunters, survivalists, etc. from the "Old Days" would do after they cleaned their guns is to LOAD THEM so they could be ready for whatever comes their way, Bad Guys, game animals, etc.

So there you have it...a really clean rifle was the sign of an unused one, unless you had two or three in the house and would rotate useage. :hmm:

If I know that I'm going back to the range in the next day or so, I clean my rifle to a serviceable condition only, cause it's only going to get dirty again. They most probably did the same thing in the "Old Days".

Just remember when you start thinking about buying old original period firearms that if you find one in "like-new" condition then it looks pretty, but nobody really used the thing for what it was intended for :winking: All the best, Dave

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I agree with you somewhat. I would like to point out that it ain't no big chore to use a patch wet with hot soapy water around the campfire at night to clean a loaded barrel. the grease patch makes a tight seal and with care the charge of powder won't be contaminated. then re-grease the bore after drying. they took care of their rifles, their lifes depended on 'em. that is why many of them carried 2 rifles or a pistol of same caliber/ make for emergencys. I read that Bridger carried 2 pistols of same caliber/maker as his rifle in 'scabbards' hanging from his saddle horn.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

That's how the BP centerfire cowboy loads came into existance. The .44-40 and the .45 LC are still in use and being commercially loaded with BP by Goex to this day. Having one size ammo fit more than one gun is still in use today...a 9mm pistol and a 9mm H&K MP-5 full auto sub gun use the same round.

I guess if something isn't broke, it don't need fixing All the best, Dave

 

[J.D.]

I suspect that many old rifles with heavily pitted barrels were shot and put away without cleaning by great grand children of the frontiersmen, who either didn't know how to clean a ML, or simply didn't care about that rusty old gun.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Yeah--it's a shame :redface: . Not gonna happen with my guns! Taught my 17 yr. old Eagle Scout how to shoot and CLEAN :applause: . He cleans his own BP rifle and wheelgun after each BP League shoot. Sometimes we get to clean-em together . More Father & Son time that way! Ya know it's a nice feeling getting beat in competition by your Son :shocked2: . All the best, Dave