What is the deal with the fouling ring

[SDSmlf]

Are you recommending liquid mink oil? Something like the Fiebing's stuff. I know it's mink oil and Neatsfoot oil. But that's ok.

Read the MSDS on any of the mink oil shoe polishes and you will find many contain little if any actual mink oil. What folks are suggesting is that you use, at least for now, is some water based patch lube. Some dish soap or Murphy’s oil soap in water will work. The idea is to dissolve that fouling ring, and a water based lube will accomplish that.

 

[Gvilleddie]

I’ve used WonderLube, mink oil, Bore Butter and various other concoctions. Nothing works as well as 50% Dawn in water. Slick as can be and no crude ring. FWIW, E…

 

[Antelope Pete]

SDSmlf and Gvilleddie,
I asked and you and others responded. I haven't tried the water and detergent based method so I will try it out first. I appreciate the ratio info. and was wondering about that. Thanks also for the video link . Thanks to everybody.

 

[SDSmlf]

I haven't tried the water and detergent based method so I will try it out first. I appreciate the ratio info.

The ratio hasn’t been that critical, but if you’re bothering to test things, consistency is always a good idea. You at least know what you are trying. There is definitely a crowd that likes the Dawn, and no doubt it works. I just happen to use Murphy’s, another ‘standard’, because that’s what I have used for years. The quantity Moose milk mix I use, and again, just because, is 1 part Murphy’s, 1 part Ballistols and 20 parts distilled water (already used it in a steamer and it’s cheap). Probably not as slick as the 50/50 Dawn and water, but it does work for me as long as the temperature is above freezing. Remember, the ‘active ingredient’ is water.

 

[morehops52]

I'm all about using what I have if it's appropriate to the problem. Bore paste is recommended her quite oftenbut I used some metal polish paste on a cotton patch and used about 100 strokes to polish the bore. Big difference in loading noticed right away. Use a new patch and paste every 20-30 strokes and you'll see a difference.

 

[ETipp]

It can be common for the hard fouling ring to form for some barrel and lubricants. The solution is to use a patch lubricant that softens the fouling or wipe the bore with a damp patch lubricated with a fouling softening mix of dish soap and water followed by a dry patch. After all, we are shooting black powder and fouling build up is part of the experience.

A new barrel with some roughness on the lands will be more prone to a fouling build up. A little polishing of the bore and a loading procedure that addresses the fouling (wipe with a damp patch between shots or use a wet patch on the ball) will improve the conditions at the breech.

Yes sir, I agree 100%. For a target shooting scenario, I could see how a water/soap shooting patch could be conducive.

Being a hunter first and foremost, I find it conducive to use the exact same products and procedures every time I shoot. Its not a problem to run a lightly damp patch down the bore after a few shots, then follow up with one dry patch. Most every time I feel resistance when loading, I’ll run a damp patch down the bore (that has Windex on it) followed by a dry patch, prior to loading again. There has been times that I haven’t done this while squirrel hunting when there were more squirrels in very close proximity. However, generally speaking, I prefer to run a damp patch down the bore after 2-3 shots maximum. One day I shot and loaded 11 times without doing so but that was using a thinner patch (with Bore Butter) that I found out later was blowing to pieces.

I use TOTW Mink Oil for a patch lube. For a hunting application, I don’t want any water in the bore, considering my rifle is sometimes loaded for hours on end, even a couple of days sometimes, I do not think that any water is good for the bore, nor sitting on top of the powder charge.

But that’s just me.

 

[waksupi]

I’ll try the wet patches. I have been using patches lubed with Moosemilk which I let dry.

Using dry moose milk patches, swabbing between shots will definitely be needed.

 

[Mike in FL]

I've nothing too add that's not been stated except that the lube is not causing that issue. Over the years, way too much has been said about lubes.Wonder Lube is as good as any other. It has been blamed for defects it does not have, like turning to liquid on a hot day and spoiling the powder. It's reputation went south when it came out and was advertised as a bore seasoning product, which it ain't. Folks added to that lie with other bad traits. I've used pre-lubed WonderLube patches for many years without any problem at all.

 

[büchsenmacher64]

It's machining rings caused by the reamer when making the barrel. All Colerain barrels have them. Look down the barrel with a bore scope and you'll see them. They catch a lot of fouling. My 58 has one down near the breech. You can polish it with some polishing compound or just keep shooting. It'll get better. I'm going to get beat up for this but consider taking a punch and punching a bunch of felt wool wads out of an old hat. Obviously the same size of your bore. Load in front of your PB, It'll help your accuracy.

 

[ETipp]

I've nothing too add that's not been stated except that the lube is not causing that issue. Over the years, way too much has been said about lubes.Wonder Lube is as good as any other. It has been blamed for defects it does not have, like turning to liquid on a hot day and spoiling the powder. It's reputation went south when it came out and was advertised as a bore seasoning product, which it ain't. Folks added to that lie with other bad traits. I've used pre-lubed WonderLube patches for many years without any problem at all.

Yep. I used Bore Butter for years with no ill effects what so ever. None of the many critters I've killed when I was using BB for a lube complained one bit. I never did buy into the barrel seasoning thing and really didn't care. I still have some left that I'm considering mixing with bees wax for a conical lube.

 

[45man]

Long ago Bill Large told me a Patch will shoot a bore smooth and accuracy will go away. Old timers would etch a bore over night will vinegar or urine. All you need do is to get rid of sharp edges on the lands. Shooting will do it. Many say cut patches but most times it is lack of a seal because the ball is too small and gas leaks. Deep, cut rifling needs a larger ball and thicker patch. Button rifling uses a smaller ball.

 

[Antelope Pete]

Thanks for the help. Well I tried the Dawn and water and it worked like a charm. No palm saver and fairly easy loading. Group was 5 shots at 1 3/4" at 50 yds. I know that's not real great for a lot of you but compared to the 3 - 4 inch groups I was getting it's definitely better.
The thing is that this barrel is not hard to load until you get 1 - 2 inches from the bottom.
I'm primarily a hunter too and have used Bore Butter in the past with no problems either but this barrel is different.
For hunting the water and Dawn isn't a good method but for now and match type stuff it's good.

buchsenmacher and morehops52
What type of polishing compound do you use

 

[Terrier]

I was having a crud ring form in my Kibler .40 SMR after about 6-8 shots. It would make loading a little difficult and appeared to affect accuracy. A quick swab with a water dampened patch and I’d be back in business.

I’m using straight lard for lube on a .018 Ox-Yoke pillow ticking patch with a .390 pure lead round ball.

I said, “was”…

That problem has disappeared lately. It seems very likely due to having fired upwards of four hundred shots to date. I can shoot a whole trail walk without having to swab now, and accuracy doesn't seem to drop off.

 

[Rebel bull]

Yep. I used Bore Butter for years with no ill effects what so ever. None of the many critters I've killed when I was using BB for a lube complained one bit. I never did buy into the barrel seasoning thing and really didn't care. I still have some left that I'm considering mixing with bees wax for a conical lube.

why mix it bore butter makes a great bullet lube specific product also. by the way I buy my BB by the gallon special order but then me and my son shoot in excess of 1000 rounds a year through our various guns I expect that to go up as his soon to be wife is now hooked after attending her first shoot we shot all day without wiping at all

 

[Old Bear]

Read the MSDS on any of the mink oil shoe polishes and you will find many contain little if any actual mink oil. What folks are suggesting is that you use, at least for now, is some water based patch lube. Some dish soap or Murphy’s oil soap in water will work. The idea is to dissolve that fouling ring, and a water based lube will accomplish that.

I have been reading all of these different lube solutions.have never had the issue.have been shooting black powder since the sixties l use spit never a problem does anyone else use this old method.The correct size ball and patch and powder charge is the ke to accuracy just me .

Read the MSDS on any of the mink oil shoe polishes and you will find many contain little if any actual mink oil. What folks are suggesting is that you use, at least for now, is some water based patch lube. Some dish soap or Murphy’s oil soap in water will work. The idea is to dissolve that fouling ring, and a water based lube will accomplish that.

 

[Antelope Pete]

It's machining rings caused by the reamer when making the barrel. All Colerain barrels have them. Look down the barrel with a bore scope and you'll see them. They catch a lot of fouling. My 58 has one down near the breech. You can polish it with some polishing compound or just keep shooting. It'll get better. I'm going to get beat up for this but consider taking a punch and punching a bunch of felt wool wads out of an old hat. Obviously the same size of your bore. Load in front of your PB, It'll help your accuracy.

I'm all about using what I have if it's appropriate to the problem. Bore paste is recommended her quite oftenbut I used some metal polish paste on a cotton patch and used about 100 strokes to polish the bore. Big difference in loading noticed right away. Use a new patch and paste every 20-30 strokes and you'll see a difference.

What polishing compound are you guys recommending?

Today I thought I'd try 80 grains of Swiss just to see how things went. I used the Dawn and water lube and..... well the ball got hung up about 1 1/2 " from the bottom. I tried the palm saver and then a leathercraft wooden mallet to drive it down with no luck. So I tried a ball puller and no go it's stuck hard. I poured some water and dawn in to see if it will loosen up enough to pull it out. After waiting awhile my wife and I tried again with no luck. I kept pulling the puller through the ball. So I tried one last thing before I pulled the breech plug. Screwed the puller in again even farther and put a crescent wrench on the cleaning rod in front of the handle and hit the wrench with a plastic mallet and it finally came loose. This is ridiculous . Like I said earlier it's fine untiI it gets toward the bottom. I hope polishing helps but I have my doubts.

 

[SDSmlf]

What polishing compound are you guys recommending?

Today I thought I'd try 80 grains of Swiss just to see how things went. I used the Dawn and water lube and..... well the ball got hung up about 1 1/2 " from the bottom. I tried the palm saver and then a leathercraft wooden mallet to drive it down with no luck. So I tried a ball puller and no go it's stuck hard. I poured some water and dawn in to see if it will loosen up enough to pull it out. After waiting awhile my wife and I tried again with no luck. I kept pulling the puller through the ball. So I tried one last thing before I pulled the breech plug. Screwed the puller in again even farther and put a crescent wrench on the cleaning rod in front of the handle and hit the wrench with a plastic mallet and it finally came loose. This is ridiculous . Like I said earlier it's fine untiI it gets toward the bottom. I hope polishing helps but I have my doubts.

Something really seems odd here. Is this a factory new barrel? Has it sat for any extended period after shooting without cleaning? Have you examined the condition of the bore with a borescope? Are there and dovetails or screw holes near where this is occurring? Apologize if any of the above are or seem redundant, but it’s time to step back and look at everything.

And just a brainstorming question. Are you sure your patches are 100% cotton? Once saw a bore really gummed up near the breech after someone used some poly cloth for patch material.

 

[Antelope Pete]

SDSmlf

New Colerain barrel
It has not sat for an extended period uncleaned
No bore scope
No dovetail or screw holes
Ox Yoke patches

Went out after this fiasco and loaded 70 grs. and she loaded great with a 1 5/8" 5 shot group at 50 yds.. The last 3 into 5/8". So it's 70 gr. easy. 75 gr. a little harder and 80 gr. no go.
The first shot it's not unusual to shred the patch both .015 or .020 and sometimes the shot goes good and sometimes not. I'm thinking the fouling is insulating the patch after shot#1 from the rifling.
I'm really starting to like and appreciate my BPCR rifles more.

 

[büchsenmacher64]

What polishing compound are you guys recommending?

Today I thought I'd try 80 grains of Swiss just to see how things went. I used the Dawn and water lube and..... well the ball got hung up about 1 1/2 " from the bottom. I tried the palm saver and then a leathercraft wooden mallet to drive it down with no luck. So I tried a ball puller and no go it's stuck hard. I poured some water and dawn in to see if it will loosen up enough to pull it out. After waiting awhile my wife and I tried again with no luck. I kept pulling the puller through the ball. So I tried one last thing before I pulled the breech plug. Screwed the puller in again even farther and put a crescent wrench on the cleaning rod in front of the handle and hit the wrench with a plastic mallet and it finally came loose. This is ridiculous . Like I said earlier it's fine untiI it gets toward the bottom. I hope polishing helps but I have my doubts.

Well, to polish you'll need to pull the breech plug any way. I guess you could get creative and make a lead lapping plug without pulling it but it makes it easier. You can find videos on how to make this plug. It's not hard but you'll want to index it so it goes in the barrel the same way each time. Brownell' sells both polishing and cutting lapping compound. Follow the instructions and it'll be fine. Use a brass bore protector but I'm sure you know that. It's not hard, good luck.

 

[Antelope Pete]

The heaviest fouling will be at the breech end of the bore.

There are many ways to polish and smooth a bore. Here is a @duelist1954 video showing the process he used on a difficult to load GPR.

I have used a similar method with Scotch-Brite for some time on all my new or new to me barrels, and Mike explains his very well. I started doing it after speaking to Don Getz (Getz Barrel) years ago before he passed, and he recommended using the green (600 grit) Scotch-Brite for smoothing up barrels that were cutting patches. Said it wouldn’t hurt the barrel.

Thanks SDSmlf for the link. I did the method in the link and it appears to have worked. I did 70 cycles meaning 70 times in and 70 out with green Scotch Brite. Loading is easy now. Interestingly the area down by the breech is now the easiest part in loading. The first shot still cuts the patch but after that it's good.
I put some photos up in case anybody is interested. The light isn't right to capture everything.