Just curious.As the title says. Can anyone tell me the difference please?
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What is the difference in a Pennsylvania and Kentucky long rifle?
- Thread starter John V.
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There is no Kentucky rifle, except in the song. :wink:
Claude said:
Then why does one see so many advertised as Kentucky rifles? I am not doubting you as I am far from being an expert, just trying to understand?
Claude said:
Actually, it appears that the term "Kentucky rifle" has been in use since 1806, used pretty much as it is today. In other words, Kentucky rifle is the period term and Pennsylvania rifle is a modern term....Given that, plus the fact that the American longrifle was not exclusively built nor used in PA, one could argue that the term "Kentucky rifle" is actually more correct.
Humble Rifles
See page 2.
There were rifles made in Kentucky, and all states. We nail names on gun styled but all our names are just historic containers we make up. Makers moved in to Maryland and Virginia and adapted styles to local taste. The primary difference is where it was made.
Souter. Styles were iron mounted, except for the brass and silver mounted ones, Ohio guns were light and fancy, except for the heavy plain ones ect.
Souter. Styles were iron mounted, except for the brass and silver mounted ones, Ohio guns were light and fancy, except for the heavy plain ones ect.
And for those who don't know, the song wasn't written until 1821.Claude said:
It remained popular and Andrew Jackson used it in his bids for the Presidency.
It was a popular song about the Hunters From Kentucky helping Jackson beat the British at the Battle of New Orleans.
One of the verses goes,
"But Jackson he was wide awake,
And was'nt scar'd at trifles,
For well he knew what aim we take
With our Kentucky rifles.
So he led us up to a Cyprus swamp,
The ground was low and mucky,
There stood John Bull in martial pomp,
And here was old Kentucky."
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/RifleSong.html
Although there were gunsmiths in Kentucky before 1812, most of the American long rifles were made in Pennsylvania with lesser numbers made in Virginia and the Carolina's and later, in Tennessee.
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In a book I have, The Pennsylvania ~ Kentucky Rifle by Henry J Kauffman. The main difference I see between the two is the Pennsylvania rifles are decorated more than the Kentucky rifles.
Because, upon rereading the thread, this is not clear:
"Pennsylvania rifle" and "Kentucky rifle" are synonyms. They are both generic names for American-made rifles with long barrels (i.e., over three feet and usually over 40"). "Kentucky rifle" is the older term, "Pennsylvania rifle" was coined by collectors sometime in the 20th century because they thought it was more indicative of the rifles' origins and less misleading.
When someone is talking about rifles specifically made in PA or Kentucky, not longrifles as a generic group, it is usually pretty obvious from context.
"Pennsylvania rifle" and "Kentucky rifle" are synonyms. They are both generic names for American-made rifles with long barrels (i.e., over three feet and usually over 40"). "Kentucky rifle" is the older term, "Pennsylvania rifle" was coined by collectors sometime in the 20th century because they thought it was more indicative of the rifles' origins and less misleading.
When someone is talking about rifles specifically made in PA or Kentucky, not longrifles as a generic group, it is usually pretty obvious from context.
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op:
"Kentucky" Rifle became a name after breechloaders became common. Mostly popular in the middle twentieth century. Collectors and front stuffers started saying Pennsylvania so we could have a bit of trivia to show that we knew our stuff. Should we hear 'Kentucky' we knew it was a newbe or a 'uneducated' tourist saying it. Saying 'Kentucky' was the same as saying possible sack, or wearing a coon skin cap.
No matter the activity, from on line gaming to Wtbs to radio controlled model air craft there is an inside jargon that sets that sub group apart. Its our own little elitism.
No matter the activity, from on line gaming to Wtbs to radio controlled model air craft there is an inside jargon that sets that sub group apart. Its our own little elitism.
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Coonskin caps are perfectly appropriate to NA/Woodland tribal groups (though primarily before 1700.) = Our people INVENTED natural fur hats, at least by the time that they were used in Eastern Europe/Nordic Europe.
I can see a re-enactor routinely wearing a raccoon/skunk/otter hat IF they are portraying a NA or a pre-18th Century free-hunter/trapper/explorer, who spent considerable amount of time with (and perhaps married into a tribe) the Woodland folk.= Woodland women would have likely dressed their family (at least early & before they adopted "white dress") in their usual NA dress.
just my OPINION, satx
I can see a re-enactor routinely wearing a raccoon/skunk/otter hat IF they are portraying a NA or a pre-18th Century free-hunter/trapper/explorer, who spent considerable amount of time with (and perhaps married into a tribe) the Woodland folk.= Woodland women would have likely dressed their family (at least early & before they adopted "white dress") in their usual NA dress.
just my OPINION, satx
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That was a very interesting link. Thanks for posting it. Who says "new" things can not be found on the material culture of 200 plus years ago?
Gus
Gus
I should have said became a popular term. Mostly people would say 'rifle' or 'American Rifle'. When a state was put with rifle it often refered to a militia or state regiment that had been raised armed with rifles.
Your link upsets the myth that it goes back to the war of 1812 poem as it was used earlier. However referring to a long rifle, or any muzzle loader of American style as a 'Kentucky' was mostly a twentieth century use of the term.
Your link upsets the myth that it goes back to the war of 1812 poem as it was used earlier. However referring to a long rifle, or any muzzle loader of American style as a 'Kentucky' was mostly a twentieth century use of the term.
People in Kentucky used rifles made in Pennsylvania. "Our Kentucky Rifles" referred to a militia unit in the Battle of New Orleans related song "The Hunters of Kentucky", I believe. Referring to the people and not the origin of the rifles they used. Eventually the gunsmiths spread with civilization and longrifles were made wherever settlements could support a gunsmith. And then they started getting shorter.
If you know a flintlock rifle was of, or is styled in a specific school based on architecture and features: it's a Pennsylvania rifle. If it's a long flintlock but you don't know what the heck it is: it's a Kentucky rifle. ;-)
Mostly at the time they would have been called "rifles".
If you know a flintlock rifle was of, or is styled in a specific school based on architecture and features: it's a Pennsylvania rifle. If it's a long flintlock but you don't know what the heck it is: it's a Kentucky rifle. ;-)
Mostly at the time they would have been called "rifles".
For sure folks in upstate New York or Vermont, nor folks in Alabama or Mississippi using the same basic style would not have called their guns 'Kentucky'. On the other hand someone pushing in to the old northwest out of Kentucky, or in the trans Mississippi may well have thought of his gun as a Kentucky rifle. Going in to old French and British holdings were Fusils and fowling pieces were more to be seen, and maybe coming out of Kentucky or western Virgina he could well have slapped a state name to his gun. :idunno:
New arrivals on our shore who had heard tell of Jackson's victory may well have wanted to get 'one of them Kentucky rifles', even if Minnesota or the western gold fields was their goal.
New arrivals on our shore who had heard tell of Jackson's victory may well have wanted to get 'one of them Kentucky rifles', even if Minnesota or the western gold fields was their goal.
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A number of period sources simply refer to a "rifle barrel gun". In modern usage, both "Kentucky" and "Pennsylvania" are somewhat generic terms, sometimes used simply as marketing terms and not having any meaningful distinction. Many collectors and enthusiasts use "American long rifle" as the generic term which eliminates confusion of the general term with any particular "school". When referring to an individual rifle, if it has many stylistic features common to those produced by a specific builder or in a specific area, then it may be called a "Beck" or "Christian Springs" or whatever.
Hey Bravo:
Years ago the butt stock on some rifles had sort of a roman nose or curvature and there was a tendency to call one style a "Pennsylvania" and the other a "Kentucky".
This was actually wrong from the start because styles varied between makers and they also changed over time.
The correct name of the firearm is The American Long Rifle.
That Kaufmann Book. I think you can find used copies in good shape for around $10. The photos are black and white but there is a good history on changes in time and county by county variations. Pennsylvania was the arsenal of America at the time. A great many firearms of all sorts were made there.
Years ago the butt stock on some rifles had sort of a roman nose or curvature and there was a tendency to call one style a "Pennsylvania" and the other a "Kentucky".
This was actually wrong from the start because styles varied between makers and they also changed over time.
The correct name of the firearm is The American Long Rifle.
That Kaufmann Book. I think you can find used copies in good shape for around $10. The photos are black and white but there is a good history on changes in time and county by county variations. Pennsylvania was the arsenal of America at the time. A great many firearms of all sorts were made there.
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Long rifles became famous as the choice of American hunters at the same time Kentucky was looked on as a heaven on earth for hunters; a large tract of unclaimed lands that even Indians did not have settlements on. Kentucky had a special place in the mystique of late colonial America, and the kind of rifle used there began to be named as such. The same is true for the plains rifle of a later period. It didn't have to be made in the middle of a buffalo herd in the Great Plains to be called a "plains rifle". It was named for the most famous place of use.
Trying to say Kentucky rifles were named after just any old geographical area is missing the point. It wasn't a popularity contest among states, it was a widespread public fascination about everything related to Kentucky at the time. Only later, when historians tried to pinpoint where the long rifle was developed did they decide to start calling them Pennsylvania rifles. There was plenty of game and hunting in Pennsylvania, but no outstanding public fascination with the area.
Kentucky was known as the "dark and bloody ground" before the white settlers came. It had been fought over by various tribes time and time again, and had been decidedly left as a hunting grounds where no tribe would settle and claim ownership. This made it very different from areas to the north or south of it, where white traders had traveled from village to village. Kentucky was virtually unknown and an almost a magical place which captured the imagination of people on the coast as well as inland settlements. When Daniel Boone marked the first European trail into the area, he became a celebrity of the time; a John Glenn or Neil Armstrong type guy.
Kentucky wasn't the birthplace of the American rifle, but the mystique of the place and the gun developed simultaneously in American culture and folklore. Joining them by name was a natural thing to do at the time. When you thought of hunting you thought of Kentucky and when you thought of hunters you thought of long rifles. When you said Kentucky rifle, everyone knew you meant a rifle designed for hunting, not target shooting or military use.
Trying to say Kentucky rifles were named after just any old geographical area is missing the point. It wasn't a popularity contest among states, it was a widespread public fascination about everything related to Kentucky at the time. Only later, when historians tried to pinpoint where the long rifle was developed did they decide to start calling them Pennsylvania rifles. There was plenty of game and hunting in Pennsylvania, but no outstanding public fascination with the area.
Kentucky was known as the "dark and bloody ground" before the white settlers came. It had been fought over by various tribes time and time again, and had been decidedly left as a hunting grounds where no tribe would settle and claim ownership. This made it very different from areas to the north or south of it, where white traders had traveled from village to village. Kentucky was virtually unknown and an almost a magical place which captured the imagination of people on the coast as well as inland settlements. When Daniel Boone marked the first European trail into the area, he became a celebrity of the time; a John Glenn or Neil Armstrong type guy.
Kentucky wasn't the birthplace of the American rifle, but the mystique of the place and the gun developed simultaneously in American culture and folklore. Joining them by name was a natural thing to do at the time. When you thought of hunting you thought of Kentucky and when you thought of hunters you thought of long rifles. When you said Kentucky rifle, everyone knew you meant a rifle designed for hunting, not target shooting or military use.
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