What is the difference in a Pennsylvania and Kentucky long rifle?

[Black Jack]

The difference is that "Kentucky" rifle is a misnomer. The correct term is "Pennsylvania Rifle", Pennsylvania being the center of gunmaking activity at that time. They were widely used in Kentucky, the "dark and bloody ground".

 

[tenngun]

I think we are saying the same thing here. 'Kentucky' would take on a fame. The term might well have been used by folks who had no connection to Kentucky. However it was looking back with nostalga that the mystic of the Kentucky rifle was born. By the twentieth century it had become the name of any old long and not so long gun.
When we talk of styles today, and we don't want to say Kentucky rifle unless we mean a rifle built in Kentucky, we are (smugly)demonstrating an arcane knowledge. When we say Virginia rifle we show we know there were local varitions of rifle styles. When we say late Virginia we demonstrate we are playing with the big boys now. We know styles changed over time, and we can tell early from late. Its our own version of saying, 'Well that movie screwd up, all the b-17s were Gs when in the real raid they used mostly Es and a few Fs'

 

[Grumpa]

Actually, it appears that the term "Kentucky rifle" has been in use since 1806, used pretty much as it is today.

The link you provide only quotes Allan Gutchess (from two other articles) stating that this is the case, not giving examples of this usage. I wasn't able to locate the articles to see what Gutchess bases his statement on.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Nativearizonan]

I think we are saying the same thing here. 'Kentucky' would take on a fame. The term might well have been used by folks who had no connection to Kentucky. However it was looking back with nostalga that the mystic of the Kentucky rifle was born. By the twentieth century it had become the name of any old long and not so long gun.
When we talk of styles today, and we don't want to say Kentucky rifle unless we mean a rifle built in Kentucky, we are (smugly)demonstrating an arcane knowledge. When we say Virginia rifle we show we know there were local varitions of rifle styles. When we say late Virginia we demonstrate we are playing with the big boys now. We know styles changed over time, and we can tell early from late. Its our own version of saying, 'Well that movie screwd up, all the b-17s were Gs when in the real raid they used mostly Es and a few Fs'

It sounds like your argument is basically about the proper term for rifles in modern use by shooters and collectors of period weapons and reproductions of the same. What I believe Elnathan was getting at, and I was trying to support was the historic use was different than the presently often accepted modern use of the term Kentucky rifle. I'm sure you can dig around and find plenty of pre Civil War references to Kentucky rifles meaning full stock long rifles, but I would be surprised to hear that such rifles were called Pennsylvania rifles at any time before the late 19th century; perhaps not until the mid 20th century. If anyone can find that early "Pennsylvania rifle" reference, I will gladly withdraw the argument.

 

[Nativearizonan]

BTW, the first reproduction called a Pennsylvania Rifle I ever saw was in the Dixie catalog. It was just like their Kentucky rifle, but with a roman nose stock. This would have been the early 1960s.

 

[Elnathan]

Actually, it appears that the term "Kentucky rifle" has been in use since 1806, used pretty much as it is today.

The link you provide only quotes Allan Gutchess (from two other articles) stating that this is the case, not giving examples of this usage. I wasn't able to locate the articles to see what Gutchess bases his statement on.

Richard/Grumpa

Yeah, I'm relying on Mel Hankla's summary for the moment. I tend to think that both he and Gutchess are reliable, though.

 

[bpd303]

I always thought the term Kentucky Rifle came about, because people couldn't spell Pennsylvania. :slap: :haha:

 

[don hepler]

Here in Southwest Virginia, I think that most people would group a lot of the plain looking iron mounted rifles, into the "Southern Mountain Rifles" category. There are slight variations, especially in the amount of drop in the stock, when you see a rifle built in Tenn., North Carolina, or Kentucky. The Virginia rifles, especially from the Shenandoah area, look very much like the Lancaster rifles, to me, with brass and fancier details.

I'm probably wrong, but....I would call a Kentucky rifle...a SMR.

 

[tenngun]

I think we are saying the same thing here. 'Kentucky' would take on a fame. The term might well have been used by folks who had no connection to Kentucky. However it was looking back with nostalga that the mystic of the Kentucky rifle was born. By the twentieth century it had become the name of any old long and not so long gun.
When we talk of styles today, and we don't want to say Kentucky rifle unless we mean a rifle built in Kentucky, we are (smugly)demonstrating an arcane knowledge. When we say Virginia rifle we show we know there were local varitions of rifle styles. When we say late Virginia we demonstrate we are playing with the big boys now. We know styles changed over time, and we can tell early from late. Its our own version of saying, 'Well that movie screwd up, all the b-17s were Gs when in the real raid they used mostly Es and a few Fs'

It sounds like your argument is basically about the proper term for rifles in modern use by shooters and collectors of period weapons and reproductions of the same. What I believe Elnathan was getting at, and I was trying to support was the historic use was different than the presently often accepted modern use of the term Kentucky rifle. I'm sure you can dig around and find plenty of pre Civil War references to Kentucky rifles meaning full stock long rifles, but I would be surprised to hear that such rifles were called Pennsylvania rifles at any time before the late 19th century; perhaps not until the mid 20th century. If anyone can find that early "Pennsylvania rifle" reference, I will gladly withdraw the argument.

I think 'Pennsylvania' is completely twentieth century term since many of the rifles that got in to Kentucky were made in Pennsylvania. It was a collectors term. Of corse some of the Kentucky rifles were made in Virginia and Maryland. That's why I think it was a show-off term.
Today we will apply a lot of state names to guns that were a local style. Vincent, as a type is an Ohio gun, although I doubt if Vincent though of his guns in that way. Still we are just seeing a border where none exist. There is no point where a pennsylvania becomes a Kentucky, or a SMR becomes a Tennessee, Or even a place where a plain trade rifle becomes a plains rifle.

 

[satx78247]

At least in Mississippi & early Texas, where my family lived in the pre-1700 to the 1880s, longrifles were often in period regional documents identified simply as either military or civilian, by "intended game", i.e., a "bar rifle" (sic-BEAR) OR by the name of the maker (IF the maker was well-known in that area).

I don't ever recall seeing the use of "Pennsylvania" or "Kentucky" to describe any rifle in early writings in either place, though I have read references to the sort of "rifles (brought to Texas) from Tennessee" or even a "Carolina rifle".
(I have no clue as to exactly what a "Carolina rifle" referred to in the early 19th Century or Texas Revolution/Republic period.)

yours, satx

 

[Don Steele]

This question has been asked and discussed for a long time. I thought it was settled in 1963 when a group of Pennsylvania riflemen rode horseback to Frankfort,KY to challenge Kentucky's right to the name "Kentucky Rifle". :nono: :nono: http://www.kyclr.com/history.php

Note: Pennsylvania LOST. :redface:
All in good fun I'm sure. :hatsoff:
Hats off to both sides.

 

[Vaino]

I build "Pennsylvania LRs" and advertise them as such....even getting more specific in stating the area in Pennsylvania of the original builders from that area.

Would never think of advertising a "replica Kentucky LR that was made simulating a certain area of Pennsylvania"......Fred

 

[Nativearizonan]

The term Kentucky Rifle is inclusive of Pennsylvania Rifles, but the term Pennsylvania Rifle is not inclusive of all Kentucky Rifles.

Kentucky Rifle is a less specific term and includes such forms as Southern Mountain Rifles.

 

[satx78247]

Do you know what was meant in some southern/regional period documents by "Carolina rifles"?
Did the Carolinas once have a well-known rifle-builder's "style" of their own or perhaps were rifles simply sold out of those 2 States before TWBTS??

yours, satx

 

[crockett]

Yeah- that was my take. I was a kid at the time and thought the Roman Nose on the "Pennsylvania" looked cool compared to the Kentucky. But- it was all modern day replica stuff for the most part.
I think "Kentucky" also included Tennessee. If you were from either place you were "a hunter from Kentucky"
When the mountain man era starter all "hunters from Kentucky" were greatly admired. The long rifles they carried were Kentucky Hunter rifles- Kentucky rifles. Like soldiers with government issued gear being called "GI"s.

 

[Zonie]

I don't know what they were referring to but I know gunmakers were in the Carolina's.

The book, "KENTUCKY RIFLES & PISTOLS 1750-1850", GOLDEN AGE ARMS COMPANY and JAMES R. JOHNSTON for THE KENTUCKY RIFLE ASSOCIATION 1976, shows among other things, several long rifles that are attributed to the Carolina's (mainly North Carolina).

Among these are rifles built by
W.B. (p 171)
Lamb & Stephens, D. Kennedy, H. Bruner, S.M.B (p 172-173)
C. Crider (p 174)
Bryan (p 197).

These are all brass mounted. Most use the British style, round rear lockplates and all of the rifles shown are flintlocks.

The stock shape is similar to the Lancaster with the straight lines on both the comb and the shape and the bottom of the stock.

By the way, for your Northerners, this book shows 9 different rifles that were made in the New England and New York area, 4 of them being full stock rifles.

 

[Elnathan]

There are a couple books dealing specifically with North Carolina rifles: Biven's Longrifles of North Carolina, and Bill Ivey's North Carolina Schools of Longrifles, 1765-1865. Ivey's book has wonderful pictures but he doesn't include any dimensions, which is aggravating. Biven's book is in black and white and is a bit dated, though the recent reprint has about 40 extra pages. (I own Ivey's book and don't own Biven's, but the local library has a copy of the first ed. in the reserve section.)

Don't know about any books dealing with South Carolina rifles, though I'm sure there is something out there.


Edited to add: Here is a website for Ivey's book, giving samples of NC rifles from various schools. Notice the swiveling patchbox of the Deep River School - that is the only place where that design was ever made, to the best of my knowledge.

There is also a book by Dennis Glazener on the Gillespie family and the rifles they made.

 

[satx78247]

And to Zonie,

THANKS Gents.
While I had seen references to "Carolina rifles" in my reading, I had no idea what they were referring to.

Fwiw, the membership of this forum, collectively, is a treasure trove of information.

yours, satx

 

[kaintuck]

Id say Kentucky rifle..... :hmm:

marc n tomtom

 

[Pete G]

The unsettled western wilderness area was mostly referred to as Kentucky, consequently the rifles used there were "Kentucky Rifles", just like the "Kentucky Boats" that were built at the head of the Ohio River. I think some of the collectors in Pa became a little miffed when the early rifles that were designed and mostly built in Pa were called Kentuckies, and they started calling them Pennsylvania Rifles.

If we were to name all rifles for where they were built and not where they were used then the mountain rifles carried by the trappers would become "St. Louis Rifles" and the Gun that won the West would be a "Connecticut Rifle", and that's just silly. :youcrazy:

I'll stay with Boone and Crockett and call mine a Kentucky.