What is the proper name for "possibles bag"?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Interesting rig, Notchy:

I don’t recall ever seeing something like that. Looks to have a knife with knife sheath, a tomahawk or hatchet in fancy sheath, powder horn suspended by one strap which is odd. That would make the spout dangle straight down. Maybe at one time another string was attached and the horn carried underneath the shot pouch? That would seem to make the most sense. If this is a waist belt the horn would be dangling all over the place. It also looks like the shot pouch as a powder measure next to it, maybe that’s the stopper for the powder horn? The circular item with four holes appears to be a bullet board.

Looks like the belt fastener is of the type used on some military belts, and reminds me of ones on the old green ones I used in the Air Force. Seems as if when worn it would put the knife at the cross draw position, the tomahawk on the left hip, and the shot pouch and horn on the right hip.

What a rig. You mentioned it dates from the 1850s? It must have been made by a saddler or other fine leather worked as it is very pretty. Any idea on the color of the leather? I must know more about this rig! (I’ve got a Hawken being built for me and well, you know )

 

[Notchy Bob]

Smokey Plainsman,

Thank you for your interest. I don't want to hijack the thread, but it has rambled a bit, anyway, and hopefully this will be of interest to some others. Anyway, I was also smitten by this rig and rifle the first time I saw the photo. The rifle and "possibles" were owned and used by J. Nosworthy, who was employed as a buffalo hunter for the railroad in the 1850's, I believe. Here is the photo again, and the story that goes with it:

This was posted on the CAS City forum several years ago by the late Chuck Burrows. The caption tells most of the story. I cropped the caption off the photo I posted earlier, to save space and reduce distraction. The gadget that looks sort of like a powder charger is actually a dog whistle. As for the one string on the powder horn, we can't say for sure, but I believe you are correct... There must have been another cord attached to the spout of the horn, to suspend it from the belt. The egg-shaped item with the four holes is indeed a bullet board. The belt has a "snake" buckle. I think these were made in Britain, and a lot of them were imported and used by the Confederacy in the War of '61. I think they were military issue, as you suggest, because a lot of them also went to Canada. I think reproductions are being made, and marketed primarily by the Civil War sutlers, many of whom sell online.

Chuck Burrows just said he saved the image from "a gun magazine," but he did not say which one. It looks like it might be a page from an old issue of The Gun Report, but I can't be certain and I have been unable to track it down. If anybody reading this knows where to find the original article, please send me a PM. In any event, the rifle and most of the other items were eventually acquired by Greg Martin, a well known collector and dealer of antique firearms and accoutrements. Just today, I found this picture in the "Gallery" section of the Greg Martin website:

I can't vouch for the fidelity of the colors, but they are likely not too far off. The caption with the older picture says the rifle is .46 caliber, while Mr. Martin says it is a .50. Either way, we would consider it under-powered for a buffalo rifle, but the old-timers viewed this (and many other aspects of shooting these guns) differently from us modern blackpowder shooters. Nosworthy made his living shooting bison, so the rifle must have done its job. However, I would not think of him as a "mountain man."

Note that the powder horn is missing in the Greg Martin photo.

In any event, Greg and Petra Martin eventually donated the rifle and most of the kit to the Autry Museum, which I think was a grand and generous gesture. You will want to check out this link: The Autry Museum Online: Nosworthy Collection. I'm not going to post any of the photos from the Autry Museum here... it would be redundant, and would use too much bandwidth or whatever. However, if you go to that link and start poking around, clicking on pictures, you'll get detail shots of the individual items, including both sides of the rifle in full-length views. Unfortunately, that large leather sack that you see in both of the photos above, the one item that prompted me to post the original photo in the first place, appears to be missing from the Autry collection. Their collections database is quite extensive, and I have searched through it for the Nosworthy powder horn and this leather sack, but have not found them. It is a shame these two items got separated from the rest of the lot, but it's a bloody miracle that this many of these items have stayed together for the past century and a half. I am glad they are secure in the Autry museum now, and not circulating among private collectors, some of whom are not above breaking up collections to sell the pieces individually in order to gain more profit.

I would like to have a rifle like that. Probably any of us would. The fact that it is in such good shape speaks well of its original owner, who must have treasured it.

If you find anything about those missing items or really anything else of interest about J. Nosworthy, by all means let us know.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[George]

The caption with the older picture says the rifle is .46 caliber, while Mr. Martin says it is a .50. Either way, we would consider it under-powered for a buffalo rifle, but the old-timers viewed this (and many other aspects of shooting these guns) differently from us modern blackpowder shooters.

An interesting comment on this idea is detailed in _An Excursion through the United States and Canada, during the Years 1822-3 by an English Gentleman_, by William Blane. He was describing the situation in what are now Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky and Ohio.

"The usual size of the balls for shooting squirrels and wild turkeys, is from 100 to 150 to the pound. For deer and bear, the size varies from 60 to 80, and for larger animals, as the buffalo and elk, from 50 to 60; though a rifle carrying a ball of a larger size than 60 to the pound, is very seldom made use of. For general use, and for shooting at a mark, the favorite size is from 60 to 80."

Caliber and weight for balls-to-the-pound:
150 = .315, 46.7 gr.
100 = .36, 70 gr.
80 = .388, 87.5 gr.
60 = .427, 116.7 gr.
50 = .454, 140 gr.
45 = .469, 155.6 gr.

Spence

 

[tenngun]

In most museums I’ve been to, civilian guns I’ve seen were mostly less then .50.
a .45 will kill a buff, but won’t drop a buff. It might take some hours till it lays down and doesn’t get up. And after trailing it may take a second or third shot.
Townsend is doing a set of vids on you tube right now talking about river travel, and the journal of a guy who was none too happy with his companions.
Catching a heard of buffs they approached one and grabbed its tail ( an Ohio version of a Nantucket sleigh ride). They put seven shots in to that buff and it still got away.
I think their idea of humane hunting was a might different then ours.

 

[pab1]

Great info and pics of Nosworthy's outfit @Smokey Plainsman and @Notchy Bob! I've recently been working on a similar setup with a belt bag, tomahawk and knife.

I'm late to the party with info on possibles bags. I browsed over the thread so if I missed this being mentioned before forgive me. I just finished reading Four Years in the Rockies The Adventures of Isaac P. Rose. Near the end of the book there is a description of Rose's possible sack.

It was described as a "large leather sack that would hold about three bushels." In it he carried "curiosities he had collected during his stay in the mountains." These included a dried wolf head, a dried three foot long snake, a snakeskin backed bow, a quiver full of arrows, several pairs of moccasins and "leggins" and other "curiosities of every description."

It was written that Rose valued the bag more than all the money he earned during his stay in the mountains. Unfortunately the bag was stolen on his return trip to St Louis. From this description it sounds like a possible sack would most likely have been packed on a horse, not carried day to day by someone.

 

[Enfield58]

Great info and pics of Nosworthy's outfit @Smokey Plainsman and @Notchy Bob! I've recently been working on a similar setup with a belt bag, tomahawk and knife.

I'm late to the party with info on possibles bags. I browsed over the thread so if I missed this being mentioned before forgive me. I just finished reading Four Years in the Rockies The Adventures of Isaac P. Rose. Near the end of the book there is a description of Rose's possible sack.

It was described as a "large leather sack that would hold about three bushels." In it he carried "curiosities he had collected during his stay in the mountains." These included a dried wolf head, a dried three foot long snake, a snakeskin backed bow, a quiver full of arrows, several pairs of moccasins and "leggins" and other "curiosities of every description."

It was written that Rose valued the bag more than all the money he earned during his stay in the mountains. Unfortunately the bag was stolen on his return trip to St Louis. From this description it sounds like a possible sack would most likely have been packed on a horse, not carried day to day by someone.

In modern parlance, that sounds like a duffel bag.

 

[tenngun]

People are naturally elitist. We like to form clubs were in some secret arcane knowledge exist. So we use special words for something. When someone says the special word then we know he is part of the cliques. When he uses the wrong word then we can smile behind our faces and pass a knowing look to one another be cause we know he is an outsider, greenhorn or newbie.
Possibles bag is one such word. Historically they were shooting bags or pouches. Possibles was ones gear, also called plunder every now and then. Possibles bag is a new olt’timie word.
You can you tube tall ships on parade. And see old style sailing vessels sail past. Few are ships. Most are brigs schooners, barques snows, a few ketch’s
In Animal house they had a toga party wrapped in bed sheets. Togas were special, not bed sheets. And many ancient robes will be incorrectly called a toga.
history nerds care average people don’t.
learning this sport means learning some special words. We don’t want to call a gun a musket unless it is a musket and not a fusil or a rifle. But we rarely say fuze or fuke, terms that were used in the day.
possibles bag is a term like that. I’m a nerd so I say shooting bag. And the bag that I have that looks like a haver sack and I have other stuff packed in? Well that just my sack. Unless I stuff food in it then it’s my haver sack.
Turn screw is a word we don’t much use any more. It’s what the screw driver was called. The ‘hammer’ was a ****. The frizzen was the hammer in the old days or the steel for most English speaking shooters.
Often we get picky about some word while not so much about others.

 

[Brokennock]

Great info and pics of Nosworthy's outfit @Smokey Plainsman and @Notchy Bob! I've recently been working on a similar setup with a belt bag, tomahawk and knife.

I'm late to the party with info on possibles bags. I browsed over the thread so if I missed this being mentioned before forgive me. I just finished reading Four Years in the Rockies The Adventures of Isaac P. Rose. Near the end of the book there is a description of Rose's possible sack.

It was described as a "large leather sack that would hold about three bushels." In it he carried "curiosities he had collected during his stay in the mountains." These included a dried wolf head, a dried three foot long snake, a snakeskin backed bow, a quiver full of arrows, several pairs of moccasins and "leggins" and other "curiosities of every description."

It was written that Rose valued the bag more than all the money he earned during his stay in the mountains. Unfortunately the bag was stolen on his return trip to St Louis. From this description it sounds like a possible sack would most likely have been packed on a horse, not carried day to day by someone.

Interesting, but still not used to refer to a shot pouch....
Out of curiosity, what year was the book written?

 

[pab1]

Interesting, but still not used to refer to a shot pouch....

The original post in this thread was asking whether or not "possibles bag" was the correct term for a shooting/hunting bag. My post was in reference to that question. It shows pretty clearly that a possibles bag was not a shooting/hunting bag. I was not trying to explain a shot pouch.

Out of curiosity, what year was the book written?

The book was first published in 1884.

 

[Brokennock]

It shows pretty clearly that a possibles bag was not a shooting/hunting bag. I was not trying to explain a shot pouch

I know you weren't. I figured I would just make sure the point was not missed. Some might say I was gloating.

I thank you for your posts.

 

[pab1]

People are naturally elitist. We like to form clubs were in some secret arcane knowledge exist. So we use special words for something. When someone says the special word then we know he is part of the cliques. When he uses the wrong word then we can smile behind our faces and pass a knowing look to one another be cause we know he is an outsider, greenhorn or newbie.....

Often we get picky about some word while not so much about others.

That's very true @tenngun. I've been a member here for a while now. More than once I've taken long breaks from the forum due to peoples need to ridicule and critique posts. I don't mean people correcting inaccuracies or sharing useful information.

I'm referring to people feeling the need to nitpick other members contributions with useless or inaccurate information. Usually when they're called on it they backpedal and try to justify their comments. That smug, elitist attitude seems to be all that drives some.

I would bet we've lost a fair number of members over the years due to this. Like I said, its driven me away more than once.

 

[pab1]

I know you weren't. I figured I would just make sure the point was not missed. Some might say I was gloating.

I thank you for your posts.

Oh.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Great info and pics of Nosworthy's outfit @Smokey Plainsman and @Notchy Bob! I've recently been working on a similar setup with a belt bag, tomahawk and knife.

I'm late to the party with info on possibles bags. I browsed over the thread so if I missed this being mentioned before forgive me. I just finished reading Four Years in the Rockies The Adventures of Isaac P. Rose. Near the end of the book there is a description of Rose's possible sack.

It was described as a "large leather sack that would hold about three bushels." In it he carried "curiosities he had collected during his stay in the mountains." These included a dried wolf head, a dried three foot long snake, a snakeskin backed bow, a quiver full of arrows, several pairs of moccasins and "leggins" and other "curiosities of every description."

It was written that Rose valued the bag more than all the money he earned during his stay in the mountains. Unfortunately the bag was stolen on his return trip to St Louis. From this description it sounds like a possible sack would most likely have been packed on a horse, not carried day to day by someone.

Thank you, pab1, for your kind words, and for another first-person account! I'll look it up. Isaac Rose has provided another reference for the "possible sack" as a container for personal possessions. I think the plainsman's "possible sack" must have been a precursor to the cowboy's "war bag." It is interesting, seeing how language and terminology evolve.

Notchy Bob

 

[Mark Herman]

Just speculation but I think the rifle is post 1850's. I say this due to the back action lock which was a later item.

 

[flintsteel]

What is often called a “possibles“ bag was originally called a wallet. The term is found fairly frequently in 18th century writing. Webster still says it is a “bag for carrying miscellaneous items while traveling“.

Another common term for the bag was “budget”. Again, Webster defines it as “a usually leather pouch, wallet, or pack“, also : “its contents”. Amazing how flexible the English language is.

I’ve always used the word “budget”, Makes more sense. Always generates conversation....

Now you know where statements such as “it’s not in my budget” come from.....

 

[Daryl Crawford]

Love that last post! Thanks for that.

 

[Zonie]

I know you weren't. I figured I would just make sure the point was not missed. Some might say I was gloating.

I thank you for your posts.

Is that why some people call you an "old gloat" like I've been called?

 

[MTGUNNER]

I read in another post that using the term "possibles bag" is incorrect and bothers some folk.
Is it really incorrect; and if so, what should one be called?

It could be called Ralph or Marvin even. :>))

 

[Coot]

It could be called Ralph or Marvin even. :>))

Like everything else, bags evolved over time. Today, some are called "Samsonite", others "American Tourister".

 

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Haversack

I read in another post that using the term "possibles bag" is incorrect and bothers some folk.
Is it really incorrect; and if so, what should one be called?