What is traditional?

[unionjack]

What is cosidered traditional ? I learned of muzzleloading through a friend who shoots an inline. I have come to realize there are alot of different muzzleloader rifles out there. I saw a kentucky long rifle ( i think thats what it was ) and fell in love with it! Anyway , where is the line between modern and traditional ? If i bought the long rifle, can i only shoot round ball out of it ? what is an aceptable shooting range for takeing game with this set up?

I was considering buying an inline , but when i saw the long rifle i could feel the pulse quicken a bit So i thought id come over to this side of the yard and ask some questions!?!?!?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Depending on caliber, a round ball is effective for 75 to 120 yards (bigger holds it's energy longer). A .50 is good past 100 yards in the right hands.

Generally speaking, "traditional" would imply a wood stocked sidelock of either flint or percussion with iron sights firing a patched round ball. A gun that existed in design or features prior to 1820 is one version. There is no hard and fast definition. A T/C Hawken is considered "traditional" even though it is merely suggestive of an original Hawken rather than a close copy.

"Modern" usually means it has an enclosed primer, may or may not have a scope or synthetic stock, and is of a design that is all 20th (or 21st) century. You don't get a warm fuzzy from looking at them, and when you pick them up your socks don't roll up and down. The Valrykes will pass you by if you die with one of these in your arms and you'll have to buy your own drinks af Fiddler's Green and sit at the kiddie table (unless you were in the Marines or Airborne; in which case any Navy or Air Force present will be obligated to buy you a drink).

Some traditional rifles will shoot modern conical bullets very well, others won't. A 1:48" twist is a compromise that often does both with a bit of load development. I have a T/C New Englander that I used conicals in for regular season and round balls for the m/l special season. Make sure where you hunt it is legal to use a conical during the m/l season if you choose to. Some states do not allow it.

 

[Slash]

The term traditional will vary some from person to person. To me it means as close as is humanly possible to what was in the particular time period you choose to portray. Most consider traditional as having a patch/round ball barrel either swamped, straight octagon, or octagon to round according to the style of rifle.
As with the Kentucky style you mention, most styles have a standard style of furniture (buttplate, trigger guard) indicative of certain schools of rifles. There are as many variations as there are builders. They will have fixed sights also.
Hope I haven't confused,
Slash

 

[jim gray]

"Modern" usually means it has an enclosed primer, may or may not have a scope or synthetic stock, and is of a design that is all 20th (or 21st) century. You don't get a warm fuzzy from looking at them, and when you pick them up your socks don't roll up and down. The Valrykes will pass you by if you die with one of these in your arms and you'll have to buy your own drinks af Fiddler's Green and sit at the kiddie table (unless you were in the Marines or Airborne; in which case any Navy or Air Force present will be obligated to buy you a drink).

Well said Stumpy, for the most part, but as everyone knows Fiddlers Green is reserved for Cavalrymen.

...For none but the shades of cavalrymen dismount at Fiddlers Green...

I earned my spurs, so that means me ::.

Anyway traditional is for those who want to experience hunting, shooting, and life the way our ancestors did when they were carving the world's greatest nation out of the vast wilderness. Traditional is for people who want to take the time to learn about their past and honor our roots rather than just fill one more tag.

No enemy of this country ever fell to an inline muzzleloader. No longhunter set out for the frontier and beyond with a horn full of pellets. No mountainman ever had to make a hurried trip to a distant trading post to pick up more 209 primers for his full stocked Hawken.

If the muzzleloader you choose was used when it was state of the art, it's probably traditional.

 

[jaybeach]

UJ - I can't add much to what has been said here except that you might want to do a SEARCH for "Glossary" and find the Glossary of Muzzleloading Terms. When you get there, you can add it to your "favorite topic" list. Then whenever you need it, you can click on it and find a lot of helpful information - for example "swamped barrel".

IM jaybe :thumbsup:

 

[Tahquamenon]

I would also say that "Traditional" means to me that one is making their best effort to be "period correct" to historical ways and techniques. I would also consider being traditional as being true to all aspects of muzzleloader shooting and hunting. To include but not limited to all: weapons, powders, bullets, materials, clothing, tools, equipment, lubes, oils and literally everything.
You would be even more traditional in my view if you made all, much or most of these things.
The folks that pursue a true traditional approach have sincere devotion to a craft and are most unique and special individuals.

I mean how else could someone honestly call themselves "traditional" if you did not sincerely pursue the above mentioned aspects?

Otherwise, I would say you are just "traditional" wannabe's that are trying pass themselves off as such when the conversation serves.

For the record, I simply love both modern and traditionally pattern weapons. I'm not traditional but I have my own traditions.

:imo: eace:

 

[CrackStock]

Jack,

What is traditional is sort of in the eye of the beholder. Even then it changes as one follows the devolutionary path.

There was a time when I would have said that traditional is any wooden stocked sidelock or underhammer. Would not argue too hard against that definition even now.

But as I became addic... er -- more interested, my view of traditional shifted. I think that you will find that I am not all that unusual in my view on this. As one climbs one mountain, one finds another mountain followed by yet another. I got to the point where I was winning in caplock competitions and wanted to join those really impressive guys with the more traditional flinter rifles. Then I discovered the amazing guys with the even more traditional smooth bore flinters. Might even have to look at a smoking rope gun one day.

Run now before you become further infected and lose all hope.

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

I mean how else could someone honestly call themselves "traditional" if you did not sincerely pursue the above mentioned aspects?

For one thing, none of the "above mentioned aspects" included,.... money, time, research, family obligations, residence local, and etc.

Some folks have more "opportunities" in which to extend ther search for "tradition" more than others. Thet's why one's pursuit of "tradition" is examplified in "various stages" across the nation.

YMHS
rollingb

 

[olgriz]

To all the other responses I might add open sights. No shaders or peep sights. Original antique rifles had horrible sights. a traditional shootiing match will let you use better rear and front sights, but again, no peep or shaders or optical sights or lasers or those glow in the dark things.

 

[Tahquamenon]

[/quote]

For one thing, none of the "above mentioned aspects" included,.... money, time, research, family obligations, residence local, and etc.

Some folks have more "opportunities" in which to extend ther search for "tradition" more than others. Thet's why one's pursuit of "tradition" is examplified in "various stages" across the nation.
[/quote]

Well I don't consider the elements in which you mention being "traditional". They might be somewhat relevant from an investment and opportunity standpoint for today's "traditionalist in the making", but having money, time, research, family and so on in more or less quantity does not make you more or less "Traditional".

Which is why I stated "Their" best honest effort. It would be an individual pursuit. Different for everyone but with similar goals and ideals.

 

I read the question as concerning only the 'traditional' rifle/gun, not the whole PC thing involving handsewn linen and bear oil and the like....and even narrowed down like that it is not an easy answer. Just about everyone has their own idea of what it means. I think most who have researched the question would agree that a traditional muzzleloading rifle/gun (you know, to cowboy action shooters, the Colt .45 is traditional)is one made like any one of a number of models that existed before about 1840. Now, many of us narrow that down considerably, some like only the flintlock era (they were still in use in 1840, but were being supplanted by the percussion ignition from about 1825 or so). The flintlock had been in use from about 1600 (France) through the early 1800s. If you look through books tracing the history of firearms you will get the picture of what early firearms were like. But 'traditional' is a sloppy term. Most of us would agree that using coil spring locks, Pyrodex pellets and shotgun primers is NOT traditional. But we let the coil spring issue alone--many of the factory 'replicas' have them. If you select one of the better made longrifles with a good sidelock and real wood stock, with or without a tapered barrel, you will have a traditional gun. Then you really should stuff real black powder, patched round balls and some natural lube down it. I use spit, mink oil (and some not so PC) lubes. Bear oil is scarce in my neck of the woods. But you will find that many will say they are traditional and use such things as Murphys oil soap plus alcohol or Wonder Lube--including me at times. Pulling out a plastic container of stuff is not PC or traditional. Everyone has their own 'traditional' line in the sand that they will or won't step over. :yakyak:

 

I think either, you misunnerstood what I said, or, I didn't say it wher you could unnerstand it!! :haha:

I was say'n thet, such things as, ",.... money, time, research, family obligations, residence local, and etc."
.... can have an "influence" upon one's efforts to "pursue" tradition!!
Not, thet "those things" consituted "tradition".

YMHS
rollingb

 

[nit wit]

I do believe that a few enemies fell from in-lines. The Hall rifle was an in-line flintlock and later a percussion model was made right here in the state of Maine.
NIT WIT :master:

 

Ray,.... I'm curious as to yore "sign off",....

NIT WIT :master:

I tryed look'n in the "abbreveations" to see what it means, but I cain't find anythin like it????

YMHS
rollingb

 

[nit wit]

UJ:
You come to Maine on that bear hunt and I'll lend you a traditional Flint or percussion rifle.
NIT WIT :thumbsup:

 

[jaybeach]

Yeah, rollingb - I know what you mean. The first time he answered one of my posts, I thought he was sayin' I was a NIT WIT. I might have taken it personal like if it weren't pretty close to the truth. :crackup:

 

[graybeard]

Flash: Fiddler's Green is for sailors. graybeard

 

Yeah, rollingb - I know what you mean. The first time he answered one of my posts, I thought he was sayin' I was a NIT WIT. I might have taken it personal like if it weren't pretty close to the truth. :crackup:

:crackup: :crackup: actually, I'm in the DIM WIT "class" m'self!! :crackup: :crackup:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Stumpkiller]

FIDDLER'S GREEN


No one knows the exact origin of "Fiddler's Green" in the United States Army. Its concept seems to have been popular among 17th and 18th century sailors, soldiers, and masterless men of Europe, who knew that they would not qualify for Heaven, but trusted that a merciful God would agree to their credo that, "To live hard, to die hard, and to go to Hell afterwards would be hard indeed." An article in the 1925 Cavalry Journal may give some credence to its origin in the U.S. Cavalry and the fact that it may have occurred during the Indian Wars.
"Fiddler's Green" was inspired by a story told quite sometime back by Captain "Sammy" Pearson at a campfire in the Medicine Bow Mountains of Wyoming. Having mentioned Fiddler's Green and found that no one appeared to have heard of it, Pearson indignantly asserted that every good cavalryman ought to know of Fiddler's Green, and forthwith told this story.
"About half-way down the road to Hell there is a broad meadow dotted with trees and crossed by many streams. In this meadow, known as Fiddler's Green, is located an old Army Canteen (where liquor was sold), and near it are camped all the dead cavalrymen, with their tents, horses, picket line and campfires, around which the souls of the dead troopers gather to tell stories and exchange reminiscences. No other branch of the service may stop at Fiddler's Green, but must continue to march straight through to Hell. It is true that occasionally some trooper who has a longing, as most troopers have, for a change of station, pack his saddle, mounts his horse and continue his journey. But none of them has ever reached the gates of Hell; for, having emptied his canteen of liquor, he needs be returned to Fiddler's Green for a re-fill.



FIDDLER'S GREEN


Halfway down the road to hell,
In a shady meadow green,
Are the souls of all dead troopers camped
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddler's Green.

Marching past, straight through to hell,
The infantry are seen,
Accompanied by the Engineers,
Artillery and Marine,
For none but the shades of Cavalrymen
Dismount at Fiddler's Green.

Though some go curving down the trail
To seek a warmer scene,
No trooper ever gets to hell
Ere he's emptied his canteen,
And so rides back to drink again
With friends at Fiddler's Green.

And so when man and horse go down
Beneath a saber keen,
Or in a roaring charge or fierce melee
You stop a bullet clean,
And the hostiles come to get your scalp,
Just empty your canteen,
And put your pistol to your head
And go to Fiddler's Green.

And I got the sailor angle covered, too. :redthumb:

 

[Ohio Joe]

Unionjack,

I will not try an explain what the difference is between a traditional muzzleloader and a modern inline muzzleloader.

I will say this. When was the last time you saw an advertisement on the tube about the capabilities of a traditional muzzleloader? When was the last time you saw an advertisement on the tube about a modern inline muzzleloader?

My point is. If a traditional muzzleloading gunbuilder tells you that the rifles he builds will shoot straight, you can bank on that as a fact!

Modern inline muzzleloading rifle makers have to keep pushing their products to convince you of how good their product is, because their product falls way short of what is advertised! They are car salesmen. Simple as that. :hmm:

It is a free country, so you buy what you think best. eace: