What kit to buy?

[Brasilikilt]

Hey all

I'm putting a little cash away, saving for a rifle kit.

I have my eyes on 2 in particular from TOTW
The left-handed Hawken Full stock in .58 or the Leman trade rifle in the same caliber.

I'm interested in these because they're plain and appear to be less complicated to assemble. It seems that either one will be a very sturdy rifle that will last me for years.

I've never built a rifle, but I'm very comfortable using hand tools and have a modest, if not adequate selection including a drill press.

I would post links to the rifles, but TOTW website is not coming up right now. Just look in the left handed rifle kit section.

My question is, would either of these rifles be a decent choice for a first time build?

I appreciate any thoughts you might have to share

thanks
Iain

 

[wjschieber]

You may also want to look here. Bill[url] http://www.longrifles-pr.com[/url]

 

[MikeChapin]

I built a Hawken flinter last summer and restocked a CVA Mountain Rifle with a Leman stock about 25 years ago.

The Hawken with the hooked breech can be suprisingly difficult to get right. I would vote for the Leman for a first build. They were trade rifles and and designed to be straight forward and easy, fast, to build.

 

[Cherokee]

The left-handed Hawken Full stock in .58

I have eyed that one a few times myself. Its pretty close to a southern mountain rifle.

 

[Brasilikilt]

Bill1914
Thanks for that link! I hadn't seen these guys for a long time......they do have the Leman and Hawken in left hand!

As for the difficulty of the hooked breech on the Hawken, I think building the whole rifle will be difficult! :grin:


Thanks!

 

[Herb]

A quick look at my catalog, the Leman left hand full stock is not inlet for lock. But, "The Leman fullstock trade rifle is an easy first gun building project". The Kit Carson Hawken left hand is a halfstock. But that is fully inletted, which should be easier to put together. But, "Not recommended for a first project". I built a Leman trade rifle in the old Green River Rifle Works shop in 1978, and it is pretty easy. Later I built three of Track's Bridger Hawkens, two more from the stick, and have worked on another half dozen. The Hawken is hard to build, but the inletted stock should take care of most of that. If you really want a fullstock, I don't think it is available in left hand, unless I didn't look hard enough.

 

[Herb]

I was looking at Track's catalog. Then I called up their web site, and they do have these both fullstocked and left handed. I also called up Pecatonica River, but did not see left handed guns. I'll look at them closer later, but they have good parts. I visted them two years ago and finished a Beck Boys rifle from them about a year ago. With fully inletted stocks, the Hawken should not be too difficult.

 

[amccall]

One suggestion for first builds. Unless you are good at wood work, spend the extra money and have the company do as much work on the stock as possible. Cutting butt plate to LOP and inletting lock etc..
If you think that if they do that what else is there to do?, trust me there is a lot. I have built T/C, Traditions kits and a rifle like what you are talking about. Even after the company did the work that I suggested for you to have done, the big mfg. kits seemed like a walk in the park.

For those that can build a gun from a block of wood and make locks and other materials for a gun fron a blank piece of metal my hat is off. :hatsoff:
Hope you do build your own rifle and it turns out the way you like it, they are a lot of fun. :thumbsup:
I like the leman, personal choice. :v

 

[Cherokee]

What HE-Bear said.

I built a southern mountain rifle and it kicked my butt installing the butt plate.

I even noticed if you go into the stock section in gun parts on tracks site they have even more options on pre-inletting of tangs that arent shown in the kit options.
It is kinda limited on left handed kits and options like a pre-inlet wood patchbox they dont have those for lefties.

 

[davy]

I will pass along another hint some one told me. If you do install a hooked breech barrel .. I have been told that it is best to epoxy the tang to the breech until it is inletted and once done, use heat to release it. You do not want the breech to be moving on you while inletting it in! Makes sense to me! :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[Brasilikilt]

I will pass along another hint some one told me. If you do install a hooked breech barrel .. I have been told that it is best to epoxy the tang to the breech until it is inletted and once done, use heat to release it. You do not want the breech to be moving on you while inletting it in! Makes sense to me! :thumbsup:

Davy

Okay, I'm trying to picture this, but I'm obviously missing something, most likely due to my shaky understanding of the terminology at work here.
My understanding of inletting is you make an outline of the part you want to inlet onto the wood, and then you chisel it out, checking from time to time for the right fit, using lamp black to mark the tight spots.
I don't see how epoxy-ing the tang to the breech would make this process any easier.

What is it that I'm not getting?

 

[Vaino]

When inletting the tang of a LR it's attached to the barrel, correct? Whether one uses "super glue", solder or epxoy to attach the tang to the hook on a Hawken, all you're doing is simulating the LR. Have done a few Hawkens and believe me this greatly facilitates the accurate inletting of the tang. Personally, I use epoxy having found "super glue" inadequate and solder messy to clean up......Fred

 

[mikelange]

Brasilikilt --

Having built several dozen rifles, including maybe half a dozen Hawkens and other types with hooked breeches (both slanted and straight), and being one of those referred to who starts with a slab of wood, a bandsaw, and a complete lack of good sense, I can tell you that, IMHO, there is "difficult" and then there is -- something beyond that.

Inletting and fitting together the parts of a hooked breech, particularly the slanted type, and even on a supposedly "pre-inlet" stock, falls into the latter category. I'd sooner fit the most curved of buttplates ten times over than mess with another slanted hooked breech. Ditto for inletting a lock. Buttplates and locks can give you fits, particularly if you've never done one before, but the curves and angles of the Hawken style of tang and breechplug seem to have been designed by someone who hated gunmakers. Since the Hawkens derived their design in large part from English styles, I suspect that some form of revenge for the Revolution was at work.

This is all merely my opinion, based on my own experience, but I'd recommend the Leman. As has been implied, they were a far less expensive gun than the Hawkens, largely because of the ease of putting them together. What was true then holds true today, in that regard.

Good luck, regardless of your final choice.

 

[Zonie]

"...My understanding of inletting is you make an outline of the part you want to inlet onto the wood, and then you chisel it out, ..."
________________________________________
I think the two posts above do a good job of describing what is envolved but I though I would just say, your understanding of inletting is quite correct when talking about inlays and patchboxes.

Pehaps it wouldn't be as confusing if folks used the term Cutting the mortice for the breech and tang rather than inletting the tang.
Both terms are saying the same thing.

The reason for the talk about attaching the tang is with the Hawken (and others) it is a seperate piece from the barrel. The Barrels actual breech has a hook on it which engages the tang.

Some folks have attempted to inlet (or cut the mortice) the tang all by itself and then expected the barrels hook to interlock with it correctly.
Of course, the barrels hook refused because the alignment between the two pieces has little of no room for error.

Knowing this, I am sure you will now understand that by epoxying (or soldering) the tang block to the breech hook on the barrel, they act as one piece so when they are inletted (or morticed) in place their alignment with one another will be perfect.

 

[MSW]

if you don't already have them, i would recommend Alexander's book The Gunsmith of Grenville County, as well as Recreating the American Longrifle. a few videos are good, too; check out Tecnical Video Rental

 

[Brasilikilt]

Yup.......I get it now! In fact both of the rifles I own now are hooked breech

As a matter of fact I am most likely going to get the Leman.
My requirements for the rifle are Flintlock, left handed, full stock, large caliber. The Leman fits the bill! It's also less expensive, which is a plus as I am a guy with has modest skills and funds......probably not all that different from the greenhorns who purchased the original rifles back in the day, who merely wanted something simple, inexpensive and will do what a rifle is supposed to do.
Now to sell those powder horns!

Thanks

Iain

 

[Clark B]

Speaking of the Leman, does anyone know just how to go bout painting on the tiger stripes correctly. I love that effect. I am still debating on whether I will get percussion or flint. Or maybe get one and make it a convertable.

 

[Zonie]

I don't recall exactly where I saw it but there was an article about Leman's stripes.

As I recall, there was a special paintbrush which actually consisted of6 or 7 small brushes all attached to the handle.
This kept the spacing fairly uniform while they were wiped across the wood.

I'm guessing about the "paint" but I suspect it may have been diluted India Ink.

Anyone have any better information to share??

Zonie

 

[davy]

Here is tech Vids Rental site .. gret place with alot to offer ...
:thumbsup:
[url] http://technicalvideorental.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113_75[/url]

dAVY