What should frizzen face look like?

[ZUG]

If you are still concerned the best answer was to send it to Mr. Chambers for him to look at -- it is his product and he knows best how to fix it if it needs fixing :thumbsup: .

 

[M. De Land]

Well, that's a pretty good theory alright but the lock on my match pistol would not spark at all when I first got it and never did, even after returning it to the maker and getting it back again. Finally in desperation I changed the cock angle a few degrees downward and instantaneously had spark for the first time sufficient to ignite the pan charge.
I'm glad now as that experience taught me a lot about what makes a lock work.
I had to alter or remake most of major components on that lock to get reliable function.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If you are still concerned the best answer was to send it to Mr. Chambers for him to look at

That's not really the best answer. It may be the surest bet, but it is certainly way more expensive than just ordering a few other flints from TOW and posting some pix here.

Just one more question: When people say the flint should be contacting the frizzen at a 50-60 degree angle, do they mean the bevel side should form the angle? Or does the straight side form the angle?

 

[54ball]

Hello,
Recently I purchased a North Carolina Gillespie Mountain Rifle with your Late Ketland Flintlock. This rifle is very hard on flints. Sometimes two strikes will batter a flint to pieces.I may get ten strikes on a flint at the most but only the first five would be reliable. I'm using 3/4 sized English black and French blond flints. I've tried bevel up and bevel down with no difference. I've also tried moving the flint close as possible to the frizzen on half cock and I get the same result. I even tried going to a larger size that fit close to the frizzen and the flint skipped down the frizzen face on firing. No matter where I adjust the flint, they soon shatter.

It is impossible to diagnose lock problems by e-mail. However, if you will return the lock to us we will be glad to check it out and make any needed adjustments possible.
Please send it to: Jim Chambers Flintlocks, Ltd.
116 Sams Branch Rd.
Candler, NC 28715

To me that reply says a lot. It's impossible to diagnose over email, difficult to impossible to diagnose on an internet forum also. Advice yes. Conversation...yes but before I would bend, grind or modify geometry, I would send the product back considering it's under warranty. Bad on them...they fix...bad because you made a bad fix...they fix you pay.

It ate flints 5-6 strikes and the flint was bashed. The mainspring is real strong and I considered sendind the lock back to Chambers for tuning. After a good deal of thought I realized the frizzen was rough from striking and possibly the browning process so I sanded it mirror smooth with fine grit sand paper and polished the inside of the pan also. Flint life improved by 150%. I now get 20 strikes or better.
Firing blanks--- I loaded some blank charges to fire off in the back yard. Using 50 gr 2ffg as the main charge and 3 fffg as the prime. Ignition was spotty until I discovered it likes a fairly heavy prime........

I in no way meant my posts to show the Chambers lock in a bad light. If I were considering building a similar rifle I would use the same lock. I'm a big fan of the Chambers Classic Ketland and the Chambers operation in general. Chambers offered to replace or repair my lock. I elected to not too because I felt these problems or stumbling blocks Ive had in making this rifle perform were to be expected in bringing a new rifle to life.
I wanted to share these pitfalls with you all so it may help you in tweaking the best performance out of a new gun.
Here are some things Ive learned about my new rifle. The tiny drilled vent was just a little too low in conjunction with the pan. This became apparent after drilling the vent out to a slightly larger size. The Ketland has a large, shallow tear dropped shaped pan. To get better ignition with the finer powder the vent hole needs to raised. This means drilling out the vent and installing a vent liner slightly higher. The easier fix for me and what I elected to do was simply deepen the pan and put a slight outside cone on the vent hole. This has worked wonderfully. Ive been hunting with the rifle wich is a testimonial to how its performing now. I'm still using 2f as prime because thats what worked at the range but ignition has improved greatly.

That rifle eventually became very reliable, practically sure fire as long as I did my my part, sometimes when I did not. It was tolerant on flints and prime, it became a great rifle that would shoot time after time as long as the vent was clear, clear the vent and she was ready for more. No joke I had flints last for months in that rifle and I used it for reenactments as well as hunting.

Lets talk about lock design...
Many of these locks are based on historical pieces. Just as now there are different theories and methods.
Some locks were designed where the flint strikes the frizzen fairly high, straight on.
Others are designed where they strike a little lower at somewhat of a glancing blow.
Both designs work, but you may have trouble when you try to modify against the design or force one type to behave like the other.
Your lock looks to the the straight on strike design like many English type locks of the time period. The initial strike starts the frizzen on it's way. Once the frizzen is hit, it starts to move out of the way. Once knocked out of the way, now is when it has that glancing blow geometry.
If the frizzen surface is too rough at that initial strike point the flint will dig in and mimic a multitude of problems like poor hardness or poor geometry, when all it needs it a smooth surface at the point of that straight on strike.

You do have adjustment with the flint, it's in the jaws and in the thickness of the padding, and the shape of the flint itself.

So my advice to you, take some 4 to 600 emory fold it up and polish the frizzen face with your thumb. Pay attention to the chatter area where the flint strikes. Keep trying different sized and shaped flints too. I think eventually you will find as the frizzen work hardens the function of the lock will improve. This is at most a 5 minute job. Also this is not altering the mechanism at all, as a matter a fact it's just maintenance or finishing. So if you have to send it back for repair, it's no problem.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Of the 4 pictures you have posted, the third one shows the flint striking the frizzen at the correct (or at least close to correct) angle.

The striking angle in the first picture will quickly smash the edge of the flint crushing (and dulling it). Repeated use in that manner can gouge a line across the frizzen.

The second one "might" hit the frizzen at the correct angle but we just can't tell for sure that far away from the frizzen. To judge it correctly, you need to lower the cock until the flint touches the frizzen. This one is too far away to even guess how it will hit.

As I said before the angle in the third picture looks good

The fourth one is still too shallow of an angle. It doesn't hit the frizzen quite as directly as picture one does, but you are still going to get crushed edges on your flints.

There is a difference between a gouge and a scrape on the frizzen a gouge is a line with a top AND a bottom edge and a scrape has no bottom edge. The lock works by the flint scraping tiny molten pieces of the frizzen into the pan as sparks. If you get a straight line across the frizzen and the frizzen is higher below that line, that is a gouge and is a very bad thing.

With a properly working lock, the frizzen should exhibit scrapes on the bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of the face of the frizzen. Pictures #1 and #4 can result in a gouge with the angle (or lack of angle) they are hitting. #3 is good and #2 is unknown.

What you really want to do for consisten showers of sparks, long flint life, and sharp flints is to get that flint to hit the frizzen at a 55° to 60° angle. If you can do that, using a flintlock will become immensley easier.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[M. De Land]

When I say that I'm talking about the angle of the lower or stationary cock jaw in relation to the frizzen.
The bevel angle of the flint will change from flint to flint especially when hand made but the lower cock jaw is what establishes the flint body angle in relation to the frizzen.

 

[AZbpBurner]

Several decades ago as a kid in High School, I had opportunity to fire numerous flintlocks - all originals, and even had a chance to change flints, and I was instructed to always place them with the Bevel Down. This places the flint higher so it contacts the frizzen longer and produces more sparks.

Years later when shooting several friends' commercial flintlocks, I noticed that they were all Bevel Up, but I always took what I was taught by an old guy with original guns to be correct.

One of my Lyman frizzens is scored in the same area about 2/3 up, but the other shows only wear from use. Both have bevel down. Both spark fine, but the one with scored frizzen seems to chip and wear flints quicker. I recently received a .62 cal fusil, and it looked like better contact with the flint Bevel Up. It sparks like a 4th of July sparkler, and even after over 45 rounds fired, there is no perceptible frizzen wear, and the flint looks as sharp as new. I use Tom Fuller Flints on everything.

I was led to believe that the reason for Bevel Down placement was for the flint to strike higher on the frizzen; longer contact time with the frizzen would produce more sparks and better ignition.

I'm revisiting my flint placement on the rifle with the scored frizzen, and will see how Bevel Up affects ignition and also Flint wear.

Moral of the story. Don't just listen to the rule to Always do something only one way. There are too many variables in black powder shooting, and you need to do what actually works best.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Az,
When I first started timing locks in the '90s, I was surprised at some of the results. Some locks had a definite preference for bevel placement while others didn't seem to mind. I did have a couple that had the fastest average one way, but were more consistent the other way.

Another thing that has not been mentioned is that while most flints slow down as the slide down the frizzen, some are still accelerating as it travels down the frizzen surface.

Below is a link to three articles from lock timing done from 1990 to 1993. (There is still so much to learn.)
Lock timing articles

Regards,
Pletch

PS
I also have a slow motion video of a Chambers Round face lock fired with no frizzen spring. The frizzen returned above the pan at about a 45 degree angle. Jim Chambers saw the video and said (with tongue in cheek), "I worked hours trying to get it to stop that way."