What smoothbore?

[Yeoman]

Ok, so here is th situation, I just got my certificates through, I've jumped through all relevant hoops and am now ready to buy my first muzzle loader but I'm struggling to decide what to go for. My search criteria are that it has to be smooth bore, appropriate for the period I reenact (French and Indian war) and fun to shoot. It also has to be available in the UK. So, here are my current options:

Military doglock, I think the version I am looking at is the same as this offering from MH
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket13.htm

Strengths, well I love the lines and the feel of it. Weaknesses, I've seen the build quality criticised a fair bit on here.

Brown bess/Charleville, probably an Indian one, I know several guys who shoot them and they like them a lot. They are period appropriate but if I'm honest I'm not a fan of the look or feel of them.

Pedersoli long rifle (but the smooth bore variant if that makes sense), probably either the Pennsylvania, the frontier or the Kentucky. Strengths, well I think they have the best build quality available in the UK, they are beautiful and I've yet to hear a criticism of them. Down side, well they are more expensive (to the order of £300 or so) and I'm to convinced they are period appropriat particularly with the brass patch boxes on some of them (though I'm willing to try to replace a patch box with a wooden one).

Ed, there is another option that I'm keen on, this fusile made by a local gunsmith, very pretty, takes a while to deliver though.
http://www.derbyshirearms.com/1698FrMaFOrd.htm

So what do you guys think? Which would be the most historically accurate? What do people think of Indian Besses etc? Are we fans of Pedersoli? Any comments/advice appreciated though obviously keep in mind that I can't buy a kit or import a gun myself as it needs to go to a dealer and be proofed.

Cheers folks, have a great Christmas!

 

[rabjr]

If historically accurate ment anything to me, I wouldn't be looking at either one of those models...

 

[Yeoman]

What makes you say that?

 

[tg]

Those makers generally do not make guns that are very histoticaly accurate, this is true with ,many of the mid level builders such as Sitting Fox, TVM many builders missrepresent their products in the writeuops on the guns as a start down the slpppery slope as well, they likley would be able to make a PC/HC gun if one were to give them the correct parts list and references to follow, never allow the builder to be the only guide as to the historical correctness of any gun many simply are not gun historians do independent research and ask the many great gun historians on this board many of which are also great builders, as a rule the price will probably be in the $1200-$1500 range for a well made correct gun comparder to a few hundred for the other level of guns one might find a bit better deal and used is always a good thing to consider, I have purchesed a Chambers completed Virginia gun + all accesories for less than the cost of thre parts for the gun, good luck and do not be swayed by emotional based rremarkes and gun reviews or reviews from thoe who have little in the way of experience with the different makers that are out there or with gun history in general, therre are a handfull of well studied top level gun students whose advice you could follow with no concern of getting into the post 1800 style of gun being cosmeticaly earlyfied and passed off as a F&I style, if interested on some folks to contact on forum or off drop me a PM and do be prepared for a ruft of sorts as quite often if it is mentioned that gun X is not historical correct many who own gun x get pretty upset and take it as a personal attack which is not the case but this reaction almost never fails to present itself to one degree or another, good luck with your project and do not let the above discourage you, it is best to start with a realistic view on the overall situation before going forward, and there is nothing wrong with using a gun that is not "correct" just learn as much as you can to know the differences so you can talk with some degree of knowledge when the topic arises, there are more "incorrect" guns around now than "correct" ones I believe, the simple point I try to make is to put oneself in a position to make an well informed choice,I do not know how getting a "correct' gun into your country will play out but finding a properly made gun is the first step, enjoy the journey and wellcome aboard

 

[KHickam]

Hmmm - I guess the rub would be since you live in the UK - that all the guns would have to go through the proof house.

I think that Loyalist Arms does this not sure about the others - if the maker in Derbyshire has them proofed then perhaps that is the way to go?

Any of those guns would likely stand up to the scrutiny that they would be given at an event - just depends on what you want to do with them, and what your personal level of authenticity must be for you to be satisfied.

Welcome to the world of blackpowder and all it's pitfalls :thumbsup:

 

[Le Grand]

That piece from Derbyshire Arms looks rather impressive.

 

[Yeoman]

Tg, I take your point, obviously what I'm after is something that is authentic enough to pass muster at an event but within my £0-£500 price range. I have to say that the fusile is a bit of a favourite of mine and might wind up being the one I go for partly at least partly because I think they are the best quality for the money.

Proofing is unlikely to be a problem as they all have to go through the proof house before ray can be sold in the uk.

Thanks for the advice folks, some interesting points some of which hadn't occurred to me. I'm happy to listen and learn though.

 

[smoothshooter]

Sounds like a pretty good summary,TG; but I do believe that is by far the longest sentence I have ever seen.-Smoothshooter

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You couldn't give me a gun from MH/DG that I'd do anything with other than resell quick. It is my personal opinion that those are the guns that do the most to foster the bad ideas about guns made with parts from India.

The French gun that you posted pics of is Indian made, I recognize the carving around the lock area.

Pedersoli makes good quality muskets, and they shine at wood to metal fit..., it is not "great" quality unless your standard is only set by the wood to metal fit. The suggested retail price is way beyond what you should get for the price. The Pedersoli "civilian" arms leave a great deal to be desired since they cost so much more, but do not come close in authenticity..., their Indian trade gun sorta looks like a NW Trade gun from a distance, and their rifles are even farther away from any time period you could name. Their best longrifle costs as much as one from TVM, which would be correctly shaped and have the correct hardware. Their Jaeger is good, though it has iron hardware and is only a .54 when it should've at least been a .58 (imho). Pedersoli's are know for cracked main springs and weak wrists at the lock mortise. Pedersoli does not mark it's locks, stocks, nor barrels with proper markings.

There is no reason to buy a Pedersoli "smooth" rifle, unless that is the only gun you may legally own.

As for the Indian guns, none of them are proofed as they would be in Italy or England, but you can submit a barrel to the English proof house and have it done. It is a myth that all of the guns made from Indian parts are done with parts from the same maker. However, IF a part breaks the replacement part on an Indian gun will need to be fit by somebody who knows how (which is a bit of authenticity that could be done away with) while the Pedersoli parts will "drop-in".

As for authenticity, the Loyalist Arms musket hardware MATCHES the images of the long land pattern muskets found in A Soldier-Like Way: The Material Culture of the British Infantry 1751-1768 by R. R. Gale. The wood is not correct, and it is a bit too bulky. The muskets come with proper stamps as per the originals, but I have seen some of these done by fellows who didn't know how to use a flat stamp on a rounded surface such as a lock face or barrel. The MVTC muskets appear to be made very similar. All of the muskets from Indian parts need the shine knocked down from the metal, the wood needs to be stripped of the glossy finish, died darker, and then finished with boiled linseed oil. The rear finial in the wood behind the lock plate needs to be reduced with a hobby knife if you are redoing the stock.

Even with that amount of work, and buying a bayonet to boot, here in the States you are looking at saving $500.00 compared to the SRP of a Pedersoli plus bayonet for an over-the-counter, ready to shoot musket. So I'd advise you to look at Loyalist Arms in Canada, or MVTC, and leave the Military Heritage/Discriminating General guns be.

LD

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Greetings from California and Merry Christmas!

I have a Pedersoli Flint .54 Jaeger, and while not entirely historically accurate it's a great gun, a good shooter, and strong.

I have access to a Pedersoli 1766 .69 smoothbore musket. Again it seems to be a great gun.

I'm a beginner too, and what I am learning is that it takes lots of shooting and a capacity to endure frustration to get good at this. So my thought is to get one good gun which you can shoot lots, especially in competition. For me, personally, the ability to shoot your selected gun a lot is more important than utter historical accuracy.

With that in mind, that Derbyshire gun looks good, from a distance.

Merry Christmas!

Pete

 

[Yeoman]

Thanks again guys, I'll need to check up on a few things but I'm leaning towards the derby arms fusile. I will have a chat with the gunsmith but it's my understanding that they manufactur their own muskets, though that may just be several specific models. I'm also not worries about safety as any firearm you buy in the uk has to be proofed at one of the major proof houses, derby so theirs in Birmingham, the chap I'm talking to about the Indian guns does the same. As I said, the reason I'm looking at pedersoli smoothbore is that is what my licence allows, however by the sounds of it they aren't worth the money you spend (not that the others are but they aren't as overpriced if that makes sense).

One question that occurs to me though is what is it about these guns that makes them inaccurate? Obviously my eye is far from expert but what should I be looking out for?

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Pedersoli long rifle (but the smooth bore variant if that makes sense), probably either the Pennsylvania, the frontier or the Kentucky. Strengths, well I think they have the best build quality available in the UK, they are beautiful and I've yet to hear a criticism of them. Down side, well they are more expensive (to the order of £300 or so) and I'm to convinced they are period appropriat particularly with the brass patch boxes on some of them (though I'm willing to try to replace a patch box with a wooden one).

My third-hand understanding is that the Pedersoli Frontier is more of a 19th-century styling, and that the Pennsylvania/Kentucky series are still to late in style for the Seven Years War period. Also, the Pa/Ky series locks are rather small, probably also atypical for your period, and somewhat fussy (That's a .50 Kentucky that I took that doe with in my avatar.) I would hope that someone more knowledgeable will address these points.

Regards from the colonies,
Joel

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Every gun is inaccurate, at a certain point. The question is, how far away from the gun or the rifle, the target is when the point is reached. :wink: Part of the question is the shooter's definition of "accuracy". The difference between one medal or another, or any medal at all, for the Olympic shooter is often determined by the number of X hits vs. the number of "10" hits. That's a fraction of an inch at 50 feet, and perhaps 2" at 100 yards. A hunter whose rifle can place the ball inside a 4" circle at 100 yards will be successful, and some are quite happy as long as the shot hits within 6" circle at 100 yards.

The smooth bore, because it does not spin the ball as a rifle, does not achieve accuracy over the same distance as the rifle. However, they can be loaded to shoot quite well at shorter distances. I have seen smooth bore shooters successfully take deer at 90 yards, but most will prefer to shoot at less than that distance. Many of my cohorts like to get the deer in to about 50 yards with a smoothbore. One must learn the limits of one's gun, and then develop other skills to compensate.

On the other hand, the smoothbore does give one a much better platform for taking small game and upland birds with shot, while the rifled bore tends to be poor in that regard, though it's not impossible for a rifled bore to use shot and take small game.

Smoothbore hunting guns tend to be made with thinner walled barrels than rifles, so tend to be lighter, and thus easier to carry all day as one tramps through the fields. Muskets, though, are meant for durability, and for the bayonet charge, even though we don't actually do that today on the reenactment field, so muskets are often rather heavy.

LD

 

[Yeoman]

Ann, my bad, I meant historically inaccurate rather than inaccurate to shoot.

 

[rabjr]

It would be an easy thing for you to see if you had originals to look at a long side those your asking about. It would be like looking at a Thoroughbred horse standing next to a worn out nag...

 

[Yeoman]

Cheers swampy, very helpful :wink:

I've handled original Brown Besses and Baker Rifles whilst working at the Royal Artillery museum, I didn't have any replicas to compare alongside at the time but the one thing I did notice was the massive variance in quality, particularly with the best, obviously I think this is partly down to age and use but still. Mind you, I was quite distracted by the prospect of dusting down 30 odd muskets and rifles.

Perhapse I didn't explain myself though, what I mean is what aspects of them aren't historically accurate? Is it the appearance? Well, to a certain extent this can be sorted through refinishing woodwork etc. I'd it to do with the construction of the mechanisms? Well to a certain extent if they are a superficially accurate reproduction that should be ok, mechanism problems, well, that is more serious but at least I'd know what to look for.

 

[Many Klatch]

Yeoman. Will you be joining a group to reenact with? What are their guidelines for type of firelock? I'd check with the local groups before I settled on any type of firelock. I remember being very proud of my percussion TC .50 and then joining a group that only allowed flintlocks.

Many Klatch

 

[tg]

Often it stats with the barrel bein g very much larger thna the origianls which in turn causes very much more wood to be left and the lines are not the same. This is very apparant if you take a gun which shouldm have a taper in the barrel all the way and instead have a straight barrel all the way of even for the dirst foot as the stock profile and lines come off the barrel lines, this is how it was explained to me form a very good ML smith I know localy who has handles a lot of originals over the years, I believe some of our own noted mL gunsmiths on the frum have mentioned this as well. As mentioned it is often hard to see without having an original and a repro sie by side whoich is very hard to do for the most part

 

[Yeoman]

Thanks klatch, I've already talked to the group I'm with (been doing events for a little while though obviously unarmed). They have given me guidance on appropriate types of weapon however there we are pretty limited in terms of what we can actually get hold of over here.

Tg, thanks for the explanation, makes sense, I'll keep it in mind. I have to say the more I talk to you folks the more jealous I am of the options available to you. Maybe one day I'll work out how to ship a gun to my brother in Texas then across to the uk.

 

[Zoar]

Sounds like a pretty good summary,TG; but I do believe that is by far the longest sentence I have ever seen.-Smoothshooter

smooth---If you want to see long sentences read Franz Kafka's "The Castle". Brilliant piece of work and sentences as long as your arm.

As far as authenticity, it seems to me a lot of the "inaccuracies" are in the forgings, the hardware parts, if they are machined with modern methods, they LOOK IT, and they are thusly vastly different from how they were forged in 1600-1880's, however The Rifle Shoppe is a good place to see some forged pieces of hardware, their catalog is worth the money they charge for it, just be ready to drool on it so have a drool cloth because the binding is not too good on that catalog and good bit of drool will have it falling apart in no time and as far as getting an old flintlock to you it can certainly be done in parts is how I would do it and as long as the barrel is not shipped with the lock and triggers you should be alright with the authorities. :thumbsup: