What type of rifle would have been in use...Colonial upstate NY?

[Daveboone]

and let’s not forget Hawkeye and his adventures!

 

[skwerleater]

Rifles were available in NY during the colonial period. There is a short Yeager rifle in existence that was owned by the Vrohman family at the time of the revolution. They were of Dutch descent from Albany and settled the Schoharie Valley right next to the German serttlers.

 

[skwerleater]

Look up Nat Foster and Nicholas Stoner, both New York frontier pioneer hunter and trappers in the Adirondacks. Both born in the 1760’s and active in NY.

 

[Notchy Bob]

and let’s not forget Hawkeye and his adventures!

Absolutely! James Fenimore Cooper was born in 1789, so he would have been a grown man before he saw his first percussion cap. The character of Hawkeye, or Nathaniel "Natty" Bumppo, was based on an actual person named Nathaniel Shipman (1738-1809). Woodsmen and riflemen like Hawkeye or Shipman may have been rare, but they existed. You can read more about Nathaniel Shipman here: The Real "Natty"

Shipman was interred in the old burial ground of the First Baptist Church in Hoosick Falls, New York. There is a page with some photos of the historical markers here: Natty Bumppo/ Nathaniel Shipman

In the Leatherstocking books, specifically The Deerslayer, we find that Natty was given Killdeer (the rifle) by Judith Hutter, the daughter of Tom Hutter, some time a little before the French & Indian War. The rifle was originally Tom's, so we know it must have been an early style. At that time, I don't believe the recognized "schools" of gunmaking were very well developed. I think the original post in this thread mentioned German settlers in New York, but we also know there was a substantial British presence in the colony.

Natty didn't think much of smoothbores. This is from The Pioneers:

There is plenty of documentation to support the fact that the "border men" of the American frontier preferred rifles. I don't think Cooper made that up. This might be a good place to acknowledge that "Cooper-bashing" has been a popular pastime almost since his first story was published. Mark Twain lampooned his prose, and Stewart Edward White severely criticized Cooper's accounts of the accuracy of the early longrifles. However, Cooper himself enjoyed hunting, and he was familiar with firearms. And, as noted above, he knew at least one old frontiersman. He must have known at least something about the weapons that were used on the frontier.

I've just read the book "Revolutionary Rangers Daniel Morgan's Riflemen and Their Role on the Northern Frontier 1778-1783" by Richard B. LaCrosse, Jr.
In this book writes about the campaigns of the Virginia and Pennsylvania riflemen under Morgan. After the battles around Saratoga some the riflemen stayed in the area and joined the militia/ rangers and participated in many actions in upstate New York. Some of those who returned to Schoharie were Timothy Murphy, William Leek, Zachariah Tufts Joseph Evans, David Ellerson, and many others.
The point is there were rifles used to good effect in campaigns on the New York frontier during this period. Some of these men married local women and stayed or moved west.

Considering that post from @oreclan, it would not be too much of a stretch to believe there might be Virginia or Pennsylvania rifles in western New York. Mr. Kibler has avoided calling his Colonial Longrifle an "Early Virginia" model, but it very well could be. This photo is from the gallery on his website:

I think a similar rifle could be built from one of Jim Chambers' Mark Silver - Virginia Rifle kits. The round-faced English lock on both the Kibler and Chambers kits would reflect the English influence in Virginia as well as New York. The Early Lancaster kit from Chambers has a Germanic lock, and it might be a good choice if one wanted to show some Germanic influence.

Cooper tells us a lot about Killdeer across the five novels that comprise The Leatherstocking Tales. The rifle was unusually long, even for its time and place. There was also a statement in The Pioneers indicating Killdeer shot thirty balls to the pound. A 30 gauge lead ball would measure 0.538", and allowing for some windage, this might mean a .55-.56 caliber rifle. Something in .54 or .58 caliber would probably be a good choice.

So, it is probably true that the poor, average farmer would have owned a smoothbore. We need to consider, however, that not all "farmers" were poor. Plantations existed up north, too, you know... Sojourner Truth was born into slavery on a plantation in western New York. The affluent Judge Temple, one of the principal characters in The Pioneers, owned a double-barreled smoothbore.

However, there is information to suggest that at least some of the frontier hunters in early New York carried rifles. If @Daveboone would like to have a rifle, and I think he should get one. One of the Kibler Colonial kits would probably be a good choice.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Daveboone]

Rifles were available in NY during the colonial period. There is a short Yeager rifle in existence that was owned by the Vrohman family at the time of the revolution. They were of Dutch descent from Albany and settled the Schoharie Valley right next to the German serttlers.

I have climbed the hill bearing the families name several times. The old homestead is just beneath.

 

[Daveboone]

Great stuff being posted...I had never even heard (that I recall) of Hudson Valley Fowlers! You guys are doing a great job of giving me fun stuff to look up. In the end, we are in it for the learnin and the fun!

 

[rich pierce]

Here is a militia gun in the Old Stone Fort museum in Schoharie NY. I’ve got the parts organized for it. I made the buttplate from sheet brass like the original. Hope to make this in 2022. I’m asking the museum to get me a picture of the sideplate side. It will be .75 caliber with a 46” barrel obviously made quickly from some left over parts, it’s a classic composite gun I’ll stock it in perfectly straight grain sugar maple .

 

[Daveboone]

Great ! Are you originally a CNYer?

 

[Ranger 1755]

I would stay away from a rifle. Your best bet would be some type of New England fowler, a Long Land musket or a composite smoothbore made up of military and civilian parts. But any of the above would be a smoothbore.

 

[Tacksman45]

I agree with what others here have said that rifles were less common in NY than other parts of the colonies, however you said that you want a rifle not a smoothbore and there is nothing wrong with that! The Kibler Colonial rifle would be a good choice, however, you could also get Rifles of Colonial America I & II through inter-library loan and look and see if any of the rifles in these books stand out to you. Also, I do not know if you have tried this, but you can post a wanted thread for the type of rifle you are looking for in the classifieds section of the forum. There is also another forum called the American Longrifle Forum which is a great resource as well!

 

[rich pierce]

Great ! Are you originally a CNYer?

Mohawk valley dairy farmer kid. Fonda-Fultonville schools.

 

[Art Caputo]

Being a Northeast’r and avid deer hunter with strong interest in the Colonial period, I also find the Kibler Colonial in 58 cal rifle well suites my particular idea of a representative example. I must admit, while fictional, the JF Cooper novels/films have always captured my imagination, and influenced my preference in muzzleloader choice.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Good Day! I have long wanted a quality long rifle...will see use both for deer hunting and target. My hope is for a type that would have been typical of a hunter/ pioneering settler (C 1770s to 1820s)-in Upstate NY (that is, most anyplace west of the Hudson, but my families roots are more from the south central part of the state...Binghamton, Cortland, Syracuse, but certainly also with a history in the Mohawk River region, People of relatively modest means, so heavy on the utilitarian and light on the adornment/carving, inlays. Probably to be historically correct a smooth bore or strait rifling would have been in order, but I will make concessions for a rifled bbl for my use.
I am heavily leaning to a Kibler Colonial, thinking the style would well have traveled the corridor upstate through the Cherry Valley, etc?
Whatcha think? This was a heavily settled Dutch/German area originally, but would the Jaegers really have been in much use?
Thanks for thoughts

I have a Kibler colonial in .54 smoothbore, shoots great, even without patching up to 50 yd.'s

 

[11Bravo]

Just to clear up one point Daveboone made. Using shotgun for deer or bear was only required in certain townships, county's, in NY. I hunted with a rifle in 1963 with my Dad around Roscoe. In 1965 I used a rifle while in college up in the Saranac Lake area, as did my great uncle in the 1920s. When I got back from the Army I went to BP because the deer weren't carrying like what I had been hunting the last year. I hunted in Oneida which was shotgun but a BP rifle was OK. I had the advantage over my buddies for long shots. Oneida is now rifle I heard.

 

[Brokennock]

Well, while a fowling piece or musket might be most appropriate for early New York, but, you want a rifle, and want to stay with earlier time period guns. There may be compromises.
How about this rifle? There is a big discussion about it elsewhere on this forum.
It is not thought to be attributed to New York.
But it is thought to be very early. It really has all the shape, architecture and furniture of a fowling piece or musket, except that it has a patch box and a rifled barrel.....
It would mean a custom build,,,,


Given its fowling piece/musket attributes.
Another option, purely fantasy but I suppose possible, a Type-G trade gun that already is documented as having a rear sight,,,,, but,,,,, have it built with a rifled barrel. Maybe your persona burst the muzzle end of the barrel on a Type-G with and obstruction and had it rebarreled with the latest craze,,,,,, a rifled barrel?
Far fetched maybe,,, but no more so than using works of fiction to try to make it seem that rifles were common in the area.

 

[godutch]

About 25 yrs. ago I came up with this for what a rifle made in NY might have looked like. I'll try for pics. For all intents and purposes it's a fowler in the English style but sporting a .54 38" bbl. 'Wonderful gun for Eastern woodland shooting. 'Still have it, and the pattern it came from.

 

[Daveboone]

That is a beautiful rifle.

 

[godutch]

That is a beautiful rifle.

That is a beautiful rifle.

That is a beautiful rifle.

Thanks Dave, That poor thing's been rode hard and put away wet many, many times over the past 25 years. 12 yrs. in re-enacting and trekking, stolen once, in evidence for a yr., recovered, loaned out , traveled all around the N.E., and killed about four deer to boot. Like I'd mentioned earlier, it's just what I thought might be a type of rifle that a smoothbore builder might have come up with if requested here in the Mid Hudson Valley. I make no case for NY being a 'rifle' region. In another bit of irony, fast forward to the present, and I've just had this rifle's pattern duplicated and converted the new pattern to Dutch mounts with changes to the the comb length/nose etc. This one will be in curly maple with the typically Dutch carving of the period. Again, no precedent at all for such a thing, unless of course you might subscribe to my own selfish observation, that being, I'm Hudson Valley born and bred with family lineage going back over five generations including English and Dutch. So, in my little happy world they're bonafide NY rifles, just 250 yrs. too late (chuckle)! p.s. sorry about screwing up the quote thing!

 

[Notchy Bob]

About 25 yrs. ago I came up with this for what a rifle made in NY might have looked like. I'll try for pics. For all intents and purposes it's a fowler in the English style but sporting a .54 38" bbl. 'Wonderful gun for Eastern woodland shooting. 'Still have it, and the pattern it came from.

I like that rifle! It has held up well, through all of its tribulations.

Notchy Bob

 

[Buckskinquin]

Good Day! I have long wanted a quality long rifle...will see use both for deer hunting and target. My hope is for a type that would have been typical of a hunter/ pioneering settler (C 1770s to 1820s)-in Upstate NY (that is, most anyplace west of the Hudson, but my families roots are more from the south central part of the state...Binghamton, Cortland, Syracuse, but certainly also with a history in the Mohawk River region, People of relatively modest means, so heavy on the utilitarian and light on the adornment/carving, inlays. Probably to be historically correct a smooth bore or strait rifling would have been in order, but I will make concessions for a rifled bbl for my use.
I am heavily leaning to a Kibler Colonial, thinking the style would well have traveled the corridor upstate through the Cherry Valley, etc?
Whatcha think? This was a heavily settled Dutch/German area originally, but would the Jaegers really have been in much use?
Thanks for thoughts

My father found a50 caliber smoothbore 30 miles south of Buffalo in 1955. Leaned on our fireplace for the next 50 years before I looked it over. Found a Josh Golcher (circa 1810–1860 Philadelphia Lockmaker)rear action lock on it. Mounted hardware and barrell into new stock and shoot in NMLRA events regularly with it. An old Upstate NY gun.