What type of rifle would have been in use...Colonial upstate NY?

[Dale Lilly]

Wow! You all from the East are giving me an education. I have read some of the history you discuss .. but not enough. I was born and raised west of the Mississippi; spent a bit of my military time in Mississippi and Alabama. Otherwise only tourist travel time in the East. Please don't stop now. I love the weapons discussion as well as the people who made it all happen. Bless your pea-pickin hearts. You are a treasure ... each of you.. Blessings. Dale

 

[Notchy Bob]

Wow! You all from the East are giving me an education. I have read some of the history you discuss .. but not enough. I was born and raised west of the Mississippi; spent a bit of my military time in Mississippi and Alabama. Otherwise only tourist travel time in the East. Please don't stop now. I love the weapons discussion as well as the people who made it all happen. Bless your pea-pickin hearts. You are a treasure ... each of you.. Blessings. Dale

Dale,

I always enjoy your posts! I love the west, but the fact is, I'm an eastern flatlander.

...and I just picked and shelled a mess o' black eyed peas from our garden just yesterday.

All the best to you and your lady!

Notchy Bob

 

[Tumbledown]

So, it is probably true that the poor, average farmer would have owned a smoothbore. We need to consider, however, that not all "farmers" were poor. Plantations existed up north, too, you know... Sojourner Truth was born into slavery on a plantation in western New York. The affluent Judge Temple, one of the principal characters in The Pioneers, owned a double-barreled smoothbore.

Sojourner Truth was born in Rifton, just outside of Kingston in the lower Hudson Valley. Not exactly western NY, and the area certainly was not a plantation.

 

[FlinterNick]

Smoothbores definitely outnumbered rifled weapons in the North. But if I had to actually say what kind of rifle would have been used, it would have been a model built in Pennsylvania, maybe a Christian Springs, ‘early’ Lancaster or possibly even a Issac Haines style rifle. Pennsylvania was the market for early rifles, Virginia too. I’d imagine that a lot of buyers had them made by the famous gunsmiths or traded for them.

But for your reenactment, I’d stick with the Fowler now… that doesn’t mean you have to have a smoothbore, I don’t know too many regiments that will disqualify your fowler just because its rifled, especially since you’d be using blank rounds.

The North was really dominated by the trade gun markets of the French, and English all of which were smoothbore.

 

[Celticstoneman]

Absolutely! James Fenimore Cooper was born in 1789, so he would have been a grown man before he saw his first percussion cap. The character of Hawkeye, or Nathaniel "Natty" Bumppo, was based on an actual person named Nathaniel Shipman (1738-1809). Woodsmen and riflemen like Hawkeye or Shipman may have been rare, but they existed. You can read more about Nathaniel Shipman here: The Real "Natty"

Shipman was interred in the old burial ground of the First Baptist Church in Hoosick Falls, New York. There is a page with some photos of the historical markers here: Natty Bumppo/ Nathaniel Shipman

In the Leatherstocking books, specifically The Deerslayer, we find that Natty was given Killdeer (the rifle) by Judith Hutter, the daughter of Tom Hutter, some time a little before the French & Indian War. The rifle was originally Tom's, so we know it must have been an early style. At that time, I don't believe the recognized "schools" of gunmaking were very well developed. I think the original post in this thread mentioned German settlers in New York, but we also know there was a substantial British presence in the colony.

Natty didn't think much of smoothbores. This is from The Pioneers:

View attachment 79829

There is plenty of documentation to support the fact that the "border men" of the American frontier preferred rifles. I don't think Cooper made that up. This might be a good place to acknowledge that "Cooper-bashing" has been a popular pastime almost since his first story was published. Mark Twain lampooned his prose, and Stewart Edward White severely criticized Cooper's accounts of the accuracy of the early longrifles. However, Cooper himself enjoyed hunting, and he was familiar with firearms. And, as noted above, he knew at least one old frontiersman. He must have known at least something about the weapons that were used on the frontier.



Considering that post from @oreclan, it would not be too much of a stretch to believe there might be Virginia or Pennsylvania rifles in western New York. Mr. Kibler has avoided calling his Colonial Longrifle an "Early Virginia" model, but it very well could be. This photo is from the gallery on his website:

View attachment 79825

I think a similar rifle could be built from one of Jim Chambers' Mark Silver - Virginia Rifle kits. The round-faced English lock on both the Kibler and Chambers kits would reflect the English influence in Virginia as well as New York. The Early Lancaster kit from Chambers has a Germanic lock, and it might be a good choice if one wanted to show some Germanic influence.

Cooper tells us a lot about Killdeer across the five novels that comprise The Leatherstocking Tales. The rifle was unusually long, even for its time and place. There was also a statement in The Pioneers indicating Killdeer shot thirty balls to the pound. A 30 gauge lead ball would measure 0.538", and allowing for some windage, this might mean a .55-.56 caliber rifle. Something in .54 or .58 caliber would probably be a good choice.

So, it is probably true that the poor, average farmer would have owned a smoothbore. We need to consider, however, that not all "farmers" were poor. Plantations existed up north, too, you know... Sojourner Truth was born into slavery on a plantation in western New York. The affluent Judge Temple, one of the principal characters in The Pioneers, owned a double-barreled smoothbore.

However, there is information to suggest that at least some of the frontier hunters in early New York carried rifles. If @Daveboone would like to have a rifle, and I think he should get one. One of the Kibler Colonial kits would probably be a good choice.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Notchy Bob,
Thank you. I always enjoy your posts such as this with the stories, the history and of course the links.
John

 

[Daveboone]

Well, for now my Flinter is going to be a Kibler Colonial in 58, which arrived a week ago. Gotta have that rifle. I understand and agree the smoothbore is historically the most prevalent. I will be eager to see the fowler that Kibler has planned for arrival ...sounds like this winter.

Sadly, our family lost a locally made rifle, stolen from my uncles home about twenty years ago. It was made in Homer Ny, for a long time our families seat. The gun is signed by the smith. I have the name, which is documented, but forget it off hand. It was a light, 1/2 stock (striped maple) with brass trim and a simple brass patch box, crescent style butt plate. Percussion. .45 cal. octagon bbl, but may have been 1/2 oct. half round. I forget. About 32-34'' barrel. Pecatonica shows a 1/2 stock Lehman type rifle that is a very close style to it.
Of course, it is a much later style than would have colonized/ explored NY in the 18th century, but would still make a great hunters arm.

 

[Dale Lilly]

Thank you all again... better than my school history books by far. Dale

 

[Notchy Bob]

Well, for now my Flinter is going to be a Kibler Colonial in 58, which arrived a week ago. Gotta have that rifle. I understand and agree the smoothbore is historically the most prevalent. I will be eager to see the fowler that Kibler has planned for arrival ...sounds like this winter.

Sadly, our family lost a locally made rifle, stolen from my uncles home about twenty years ago. It was made in Homer Ny, for a long time our families seat. The gun is signed by the smith. I have the name, which is documented, but forget it off hand. It was a light, 1/2 stock (striped maple) with brass trim and a simple brass patch box, crescent style butt plate. Percussion. .45 cal. octagon bbl, but may have been 1/2 oct. half round. I forget. About 32-34'' barrel. Pecatonica shows a 1/2 stock Lehman type rifle that is a very close style to it.
Of course, it is a much later style than would have colonized/ explored NY in the 18th century, but would still make a great hunters arm.

Good for you, @Daveboone ! I've heard nothing but good about the Kibler Colonial kits, and I think they are very authentically styled. Someone on this forum recently posted images of the inside of a Kibler barrel and one of the well-regarded mass-produced barrels, taken through a borescope. The difference in finish was remarkable.

I believe a number of gunmakers were quite active in New York State in the later percussion era. There were some subtle stylistic features that may help define and identify these rifles, but the maker's name on the weapon is the best way to confirm its place of origin. They were often rather plain, but I'm sure they put a great deal of meat in the pot, and provided their owners a lot of shooting pleasure. My older sister has an old New York half-stock on display that our dad acquired as a "basket case." He rebuilt and restored it, and freshed it out. It was a good shooter. I shot it some when I was much younger. I'm sorry your old family rifle was lost. I hope you will be able to recover it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Daveboone]

Good for you, @Daveboone ! I've heard nothing but good about the Kibler Colonial kits, and I think they are very authentically styled. Someone on this forum recently posted images of the inside of a Kibler barrel and one of the well-regarded mass-produced barrels, taken through a borescope. The difference in finish was remarkable.

I believe a number of gunmakers were quite active in New York State in the later percussion era. There were some subtle stylistic features that may help define and identify these rifles, but the maker's name on the weapon is the best way to confirm its place of origin. They were often rather plain, but I'm sure they put a great deal of meat in the pot, and provided their owners a lot of shooting pleasure. My older sister has an old New York half-stock on display that our dad acquired as a "basket case." He rebuilt and restored it, and freshed it out. It was a good shooter. I shot it some when I was much younger. I'm sorry your old family rifle was lost. I hope you will be able to recover it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

The crook who broke in was actually caught, but he didnt have the rifle...undoubtedly sold for chump change/drug money. Heavy sigh.

 

[1971fx]

I live in Butts Corner NY also the post war home of Timothy Murphy the original American sniper. Try the Unadilla gun show August 8.In 2012 I bought a Brown Bess for $150 at a closing up local shop

 

[1971fx]

The Brown Bess is an original shortened a little. No front sight the Frizzen is refaced with steel that sparks huge. the lock face is worn smooth

 

[French Colonial]

It seems there lots of rifles around

Most officers, including Greene, Lincoln, Muhlenberg, Wayne, and Washington himself lamented the large number of rifle-equipped troops who could not be made into useful line infantry until muskets could be found for them. —De Witt Bailey,
The American Revolution, 1775–1783: An Encyclopedia

Belue, Ted Franklin. The Hunters of Kentucky . Stackpole Books. Kindle Edition.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Good Day! I have long wanted a quality long rifle...will see use both for deer hunting and target. My hope is for a type that would have been typical of a hunter/ pioneering settler (C 1770s to 1820s)-in Upstate NY (that is, most anyplace west of the Hudson, but my families roots are more from the south central part of the state...Binghamton, Cortland, Syracuse, but certainly also with a history in the Mohawk River region, People of relatively modest means, so heavy on the utilitarian and light on the adornment/carving, inlays. Probably to be historically correct a smooth bore or strait rifling would have been in order, but I will make concessions for a rifled bbl for my use.
I am heavily leaning to a Kibler Colonial, thinking the style would well have traveled the corridor upstate through the Cherry Valley, etc?
Whatcha think? This was a heavily settled Dutch/German area originally, but would the Jaegers really have been in much use?
Thanks for thoughts

Daveboone,
Your persona, does he just sit there, or does he "move about a bit?"
How old is he?

I ask as there is a simple answer for you. A Lancaster Pattern pre 1770 will work just fine. I'm not sure if any of the Kibler rifle kits fits this designation, but if one does, go for it. You might also consider a .54 caliber Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle from Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders.

Why do I write this? Well a lot of us think you should have a locally produced rifle or gun. Maybe that will suit you, BUT it also presupposes that material goods and people didn't sometimes move about. And they did. Perhaps not a lot, but they did.

So I'd say if it's the AWI, and if you're at least twenty five years old if not older, then it's quite possible that you have done some travelling. George Morgan ran a trading post in the 1760's in a place called Kaskaskia, which would later become Kaskaskia, Illinois. He employed hunters from the English colonies to the East. A couple dozen guys at least and they didn't all come from Pennsylvania. Morgan also imported Lancaster Pattern rifles from PA. They went through Pittsburgh, and then along the rivers to the Mississippi, then up the Mississippi to Kaskaskia. Morgan's records are pretty copious and they survived and he sold a lot of rifles to his hunters, and a lot of fuzees [fusils] to the French and Indians in the area.

There was also a huge trading concern in Pittsburgh, and you could've gone that far West, and gotten a job hunting there, and thus got a basic rifle there, IF you didn't go all the way to Kaskaskia.

It is conjectured that since Morgan was writing to business partners in Philadelphia for rifles and for smoothbores to be sent for resale, that the rifles they got and shipped to Morgan would be of some sort of "Lancaster pattern". Barring that, a very simple rifle, even simpler than a Lancaster pattern, might suffice as the kind of rifle sold at a trading post on the farthest border of the frontier of 1760. So the "Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle" (that's just their name for it) from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading, is quite basic, but they are excellent rifles. (At least mine is ) In fact I chose it because it was so basic and the information on pre AWI rifles is pretty scant and has a lot of conjecture. So I opted for less on the rifle, so less possible error in its appearance...., or that was the idea, anyway.

After working for several years in the area around Pittsburgh or even Kaskaskia, you came home, bringing said rifle with you.

LD

 

[Daveboone]

Daveboone,
Your persona, does he just sit there, or does he "move about a bit?"
How old is he?

I ask as there is a simple answer for you. A Lancaster Pattern pre 1770 will work just fine. I'm not sure if any of the Kibler rifle kits fits this designation, but if one does, go for it. You might also consider a .54 caliber Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle from Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders.

Why do I write this? Well a lot of us think you should have a locally produced rifle or gun. Maybe that will suit you, BUT it also presupposes that material goods and people didn't sometimes move about. And they did. Perhaps not a lot, but they did.

So I'd say if it's the AWI, and if you're at least twenty five years old if not older, then it's quite possible that you have done some travelling. George Morgan ran a trading post in the 1760's in a place called Kaskaskia, which would later become Kaskaskia, Illinois. He employed hunters from the English colonies to the East. A couple dozen guys at least and they didn't all come from Pennsylvania. Morgan also imported Lancaster Pattern rifles from PA. They went through Pittsburgh, and then along the rivers to the Mississippi, then up the Mississippi to Kaskaskia. Morgan's records are pretty copious and they survived and he sold a lot of rifles to his hunters, and a lot of fuzees [fusils] to the French and Indians in the area.

There was also a huge trading concern in Pittsburgh, and you could've gone that far West, and gotten a job hunting there, and thus got a basic rifle there, IF you didn't go all the way to Kaskaskia.

It is conjectured that since Morgan was writing to business partners in Philadelphia for rifles and for smoothbores to be sent for resale, that the rifles they got and shipped to Morgan would be of some sort of "Lancaster pattern". Barring that, a very simple rifle, even simpler than a Lancaster pattern, might suffice as the kind of rifle sold at a trading post on the farthest border of the frontier of 1760. So the "Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle" (that's just their name for it) from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading, is quite basic, but they are excellent rifles. (At least mine is ) In fact I chose it because it was so basic and the information on pre AWI rifles is pretty scant and has a lot of conjecture. So I opted for less on the rifle, so less possible error in its appearance...., or that was the idea, anyway.

After working for several years in the area around Pittsburgh or even Kaskaskia, you came home, bringing said rifle with you.

LD

Great information and ideas.
I dont have a "persona" at this time, but I do have history....my family on my mothers side settled in the Town of Scott (south of Skaneateles lake) in the very early 1800s, and is documented as being the first white settlers in the area, and were known to hunt with the locals (who would have been Onondagan most likely).
That branch was Scotts/Irish,. My Germanic branch didnt arrive in the US until the very late 1800s, so they are not so much an influence. Mom says they originated from Canada, coming south to escape their indenture. I am not so sure of that, thinking they came up the river valleys... probably most likely the Hudson/Mohawk, but also possibly following the tributaries of the Susquehanna...the TIoghnioga up what is now the route 81 corridor.
For that reason, I do tend to agree a Kibler Colonial (underway!) is a good candidate, but potentially a fowler too.
I certainly think the Pennsyvania Mountain Rifle you show me is a likely example too, as the Scotts Irish branch certainly would have been of very modest means.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

For that reason, I do tend to agree a Kibler Colonial (underway!) is a good candidate, but potentially a fowler too.
I certainly think the Pennsyvania Mountain Rifle you show me is a likely example too, as the Scotts Irish branch certainly would have been of very modest means.

Well the only reason the PA Mountain Rifle gets a mention by me, other than they are well built and good shooting, is because they are plain, and truly, likely a bit too plain. Oh well we really don't know how much hardware was on the guns shipped to the Illinois country...

LD

 

[pamtnman]

Unable to sleep under a heavy wool blanket in what has turned out to be a heavy rain with warm temperatures, I turned to this website for comfort and luckily found this fascinating thread. Thank you to everyone who has contributed here. Our family has some well known historic connection to the Mohawk Valley, and I’ve taken my own family on annual summer vacations from Rome east to Ticonderoga since 2002. Our kids all grew up visiting Fort Stanwix, the Herkimer Home, the Oriskany Battlefield, the Sir William Johnson home (White Savage is a good book) etc We did tours of the Remington plant. Etc Wonderful, fun, beautiful, low density vacation area that is full of low cost food, lodging, camping options, good fishing. Etc
While upstate New York might be economically depressed, it is nonetheless a spectacular destination for all the reasons listed above and many more. Historically I think Jaegers were common among the early Germans in the Hudson and Scoharie settlements, from whom one side of my family is descended.

 

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Get a rifle and a fowler!