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What will more powder get you?

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I’ve read posts here about different powders and load combos. What I am specifically curious about is different amounts of the same powder. For example there are several posts where somebody references one amount of powder for target shooting and another amount for hunting. Then there are some where they reference a certain amount of powder and then say they use more when shooting 100 yards.

How much more is advantageous? What is the point of diminishing returns?

I am getting good accuracy with 80 grains Goex 3F in a .54 with PRB. 2” high at 50 yards and 4” low at 100 yards. This is a hunting rifle and I hunt deer, black bear, hogs, elk and exotics. Should I try more powder?

Thank you
 
I adjust my powder charges for three purposes.

My guns have always shown a preference for a particular charge. So be it. If I was a match shooter that would be the end of the story.

But I'm also a hunter and need a particular trajectory. I'll sacrifice a half inch or inch of group if it means flattening my trajectory at 100 yards by 3 or 4 inches. A miss from an arcing trajectory is still a miss, and I'll take a half inch or inch loss in group size in favor of 3 or 4 inches of practical advantage. In my eyes a miss is still a miss, whether due to group size or trajectory. I've never missed an animal because my group was too large, but I most certainly have missed because of too much arc in the trajectory and a poor range estimate.

The final consideration is short range kerwhomp. The critter in my avatar photo is actually a neighbor, even comes into my yard sometimes. If he or one of his brethren decides to make hash of me, I want my one an only shot to make as much of its own hash as possible.
 
I've mentioned using two different loads for target and hunting. I don't do the rendezvous thing anymore but did a lot of it 35-40 years ago in my local area at the time. I shot mostly 50 grains of 2f in a TC Hawken with a 490 ball and a mattress ticking patch that had to be started with a starter. Most shooting was at 25 and 50 yards with some at other longer yardages depending on the gathering. I liked the 50 grain load as it was accurate in that rifle and didn't have a lot of kick or require a huge charge. When hunting I found 80 grains of 2f was also accurate and provided more energy and was flatter shooting, so that is what I used.
 
There is a point in some calibers where more powder just increases the breech pressure, but gives only marginal increases in velocity. For some reason bores 54 and above vary somewhat from the reduced velocity increases in 44 through 50 caliber guns.

In addition, where velocity increases from sub sonic past sonic, air resistance increases noticeably. To the extent that muzzle velocity may be 15% more, but 100 yd velocity is only 5% more. The additional range is really not that much,
despite an increase in powder.

In calibers from 44 to 50, increases in powder suffer not only from diminishing returns, but also the loss of increased velocity due to increased air resistance of sonic velocities.

If you have the old first addition Lyman Black Powder hand book, you can go to a 45 or 50 caliber round ball chart and calculate the velocity of each succeeding increase of powder. There comes a point in the increasing loads for a particular barrel length that the velocity increase starts going down. For instance, the increase for each 10 grain increase may be 60 ft per second, until the load goes from 100 grains to 110 grains the velocity increase may drop to 30 ft per sec. and reduce even more at 100 yds due to increased air resistance.
 
Most important question is can you hit what your shooting at. While PRB has made kills at very long range most dedicated RB shooters today don’t push ranges very far beyond a hundred to a hundred and twenty five yards. I live in the ozarks and fifty yards and less is more common for me.
So you have to weigh trajectories against group size. A four to six inch group at a hundred yards is a dead deer. A two inch high or three inch low will make for a dead deer too.
I’ve eaten a lot of venison provided by seventy grains of 3f under a .526 ball. A bit dropped by a .495 driven by sixty grains of 3f. No little amount by a .595 on top of 80 grains of 2 f and one by a 65 grain load under a .600.
 
"I am getting good accuracy with 80 grains Goex 3F in a .54 with PRB. 2” high at 50 yards and 4” low at 100 yards. This is a hunting rifle and I hunt deer, black bear, hogs, elk and exotics. Should I try more powder?"

The answer depends in part to how great a [powder] charge* your bbl. is rated for. (Btw, 80gr. FFFg with a patched RB is a ~max. load in my R. Rice 39" swamped bbl. A straight bbl. and or heavier bbl. may be rated higher.) As for diminishing returns, you'll need a chronograph and lots of time & patience to determine that.


*and granulation since a given charge of FFFg produces more pressure than the same charge of FFg.
 
That's the load I use in my .54 TVM Early Virginia flint for deer. I mainly limit my shots to 75 yards or so, that is based on my old eyes and the sights on my rifles.
 
As others have pointed out, there are diminishing returns with increased loads. A good point to stop is where results are what you want or need.
Your post indicates you have found that load. Increasing your charge will not make the critters you hunt any dedder.
Keep shooting. Enjoy. :grin:
 
I am getting good accuracy with 80 grains Goex 3F in a .54 with PRB. 2” high at 50 yards and 4” low at 100 yards. This is a hunting rifle and I hunt deer, black bear, hogs, elk and exotics. Should I try more powder?

Have kily many elk with that exact load. Stay put :thumbsup:
 
What will it get you? To quote Tennessee Earny's song "16 Tons"; "another day older and deeper in debt."

All seriousness aside, I've chronographed various loads in a few of my guns, and to say it was always eye opening is an understatement. It is possible for an increase in the charge to yield LESS velocity than the previous lower charge. It is also quite possible for, say, a 5 grain increase to suddenly give 200 to 300 fps more speed. Just go for an accurate load with hunting power and don't worry.
 
Well at 80 grains in a .54 you're right about in the middle range of powder. Not many would consider it light, nor would people consider it a heavy load. So would you gain a whole lot more with 20 or 40 more grains of powder?

You would gain some, but if its not enough to make a difference to you, don't worry about it.

I use 120 grains. I'm something like 2 inches high at 50 and right on at 100 yards. With your load you might be comfortable hitting a deer at 100 yards. But what if your range estimation is short by 20 yards? And what you thought was a 100 yard shot is really 120 yards.

This is a decision you have to make for yourself. If your gun can stay inside the kill zone out to 100 yards but drops severely after that, you have a few ethical options. Make a commitment to pass on all shots beyond 75 yards (then if you make and error and that 75 yard shot turns out to be 100 the deer will still die quickly). Or carry a rangefinder, or pre-sight in your various shooting lanes.

So more velocity gets you flatter trajectory. It also gets you a harder downrange "hit". And it gets you less wind drift. And it gets you less bullet flight time. These are all advantages, and those advantages show up stronger in uncontrolled situations.

For example. At a shooting range, 2" trajectory rise won't matter much. In the woods I have missed deer because I aimed under a branch, forgot to consider the rise, and hit the branch.

Bullet flight time won't matter shooting at a still target. At a running deer however, slower bullet means you have to lead farther. Not that I'd recommend shooting at running deer with a muzzleloader. But I have had instances where I pulled the trigger and at the slight moment before my vision was blinded by flash & smoke, I swear I saw the deer leap forward. The ball did strike farther behind than I expected it to.

For many hunters this "gain" is not enough to be worth the "cost" of extra recoil, expensive powder, potential loosening of groups.

Now, if you're shooting at 80 grains, like I said you're about in that middle. So you may not appreciate adjusting powder charges for plinking.

However, if you're preferred hunting load is 120 grains like mine, it certainly makes sense to drop to a 60 grain charge when the target is a mere charcoal briquette at 25 yards.

My old club in Eau Claire, WI used to do a silhouette match. There were iron silhouettes at 25, 50, 75, 100 & 125. The 125-yard targets were big iron bears. That was where these small advantages played out. The guys shooting .45 calibers would just make the bear ring but not fall over. If you were using a .50 or .54, you could get them to fall . . .if you used enough powder. One guy brought a .72 and that thing flattened the bear like a Peterbuilt truck!

P.S. Keep in mind this all implies that your gun can manage heavier loads without a great loss in accuracy. My 120 grain charge still groups under 1.5-inches at 100 yards. Not all guns will do that. Some the accuracy goes to pot quickly.
 
I've never done the two-loads thing. I look at target shooting as practice for shooting deer, so I want to know where that load hits at known distances, and I also try it at unknown distances. :wink:

I like 70 grains of Goex 3Fg and a .530 round ball from a 38" Collerain barrel. I like the same load from 28" TC barrel.

Now when it comes to my .40 I like 30 grains for squirrels, and target practice with that is for hunting squirrels. :grin: I am required by law IF I go after deer with it, to use at least 60 grains. So in that case I might develop a target/squirrel load and a different deer load.

LD
 
I am of the camp that believes one good load for all shooting. I don't want to have to remember to increase my load for 100 yards, etc. All my rifles will shoot right on at 25 and 50. For 100 yards I need to make some elevation adjustments on my sight picture. That works for me.
 
I have to agree I use the same load for target, plinking, or hunting. The fewer variables the less to go wrong in the woods.
 
Target shooters, shooting 100 or 150 shots in a day, want the minimum accurate charge to consistently get the job done without being bruised and beat up. Fatigue plays a large part during a day of shooting at a match. Getting beat up leads to bad scores, so may as well stay home.

28 inch 50 cal barrel Goex 3fg

60 grns 1460 fps 851ftlbs abt 900fps at 100yds
80 grns 1692 fps 1143ftlbs 995fps
100 grns 1875 fps 1403ftlbs abt1040fps
120 grns 2009 fps 1611ftlbs 1124fps
140 grns 2082 fps 1730ftlbs abt1165fps

the extra 20 grains between 140 and 120 amounts to a really small difference in velocity at muzzle and much less difference at 100 yds. The extra 20 between 100 and 120 nets 134 fps difference at muzzle but only 84 fps difference at 100 yds. Between 80 grains and 100 grains, the difference is 180 fps at muzzle, but only 45fps at 100 yds.
from 60 to 80 grains makes a difference of 232 fps at the muzzle and 95fps at 100 yds. That is where the difference goes from sub sonic to above sonic.

The 60 grain charge retains 61% of its velocity at 100 yds. the 120 grain charge retains 56% of it's initial velocity.
 
I hunt whitetails only. 80grns of 3f in a lyman gpr. I'm almost 3 inches high at 50 and dead on at 100.

However, if I were to hunt elk... id go to 90 or 100 grains. I might be tempted to hand cast my own balls with a touch harder than soft lead. Use a small fraction of wheelweight lead to pure.

I'm of the if it ain't broke you ain't learning how it works camp.... sometimes it's good at my camp.... sometimes not.

Deer is just fine with what I use...

Although not traditional, I have a peep sight for most my hunting. Definitely would only use a peep if going a bit past 100. I stop at 70 with a traditional open sight 45 caplock I also deer hunt with.
 
Yeah. Different guns can make a big difference. More powder in a T/C Hawken is going to be different than more powder in a Lyman GPR. One has shallow-groove 1:48" rifling the other has deep-groove 1:60" rifling.

My gun is a 10.5 lb TVM Early Virginia. I notice a difference in recoil when going up to 120 grains, but it isn't punishing. Not compared to modern .30-06 or even shooting 2-3 rounds of trap w/ a 12 ga. (smokeless).
 
My gun is a 10.5 lb TVM Early Virginia. I notice a difference in recoil when going up to 120 grains, but it isn't punishing. Not compared to modern .30-06 or even shooting 2-3 rounds of trap w/ a 12 ga.

Interesting. Different strokes for different folks. I can shoot my 30-06 all day with no problem. And used to do so competitively.
 

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