What would you do with a Whitworth barrel?

[LawrenceA]

I have been offered a new Whitworth Barrel.
Anyone know if it would fit in a PH Musketoon stock?
Is it worth building a gun around?

 

[Dibbuk]

Just my opinion: If it is a real hexagonal bore barrel, i would jump all over it, and build a rifle around the barrel.

 

[LawrenceA]

Yeah it is the real deal.
I have the Lyman PH mold to suit and need a rifle to suit the mold.
My wife may not agree but makes sense to me.

What Lock would you guys use? Manton, Schuetzen, Enfield?

 

[Artificer]

I have been offered a new Whitworth Barrel.
Anyone know if it would fit in a PH Musketoon stock?
Is it worth building a gun around?

I worked at what was called "The Navy Arms Booth" selling repro parts and doing gunsmithing at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships for over half the years between 1974 and 1997, before I retired from the Corps. I worked every match from then until 2005, when I could no longer afford to go.

First things first, is your barrel marked that it was manufactured in Birmingham, UK? If not, it may be and probably was made in Italy, so much of the following will not apply.

The REAL Parker Hale Parts and rifle muskets made in Birmingham, UK, will interchange exactly with Original "Interchangeable Pattern" Enfields, as long as they are the same Pattern. We found this out when a customer came up in the mid 1980's with an original Pattern 1853 Tower marked Rifle Musket missing only its barrel. (He did not know why the barrel was missing when he bought it and we figured someone took the barrel off to clean it and never got it reassembled.) The Repro barrel pressed in and then sort of popped into the final place, as pretty and tight as you please. We had to supply a repro real PH tang screw, then screwed it and the original bands in place and it was a perfect fit.

However, I'm 99 percent certain sure the Whitworth barrel is of a different and smaller diameter than an original or real PH Musketoon Barrel. So if you try it in a PH Musketoon stock, it will probably be loose. It probably could be glass bedded to fit, if you are interested.

Before I would buy such a barrel, I would make darn sure it was one made in Birmingham, UK or I would pass on it.

Gus

 

[LawrenceA]

Before I would buy such a barrel, I would make darn sure it was one made in Birmingham, UK or I would pass on it.

It is Pedersoli so Italian.
The Musketoon is PH but I dont know if it is early or late manufacture. I pick it up next week.
I heard that the PH ones were done using the original templates and patterns as well as tooling and gauges.
These were originally made in England then under license in Italy. Don't know by who.

SOOO MANY MUZZLELOADERS!!! so little time....

 

[Artificer]

Yeah it is the real deal.
I have the Lyman PH mold to suit and need a rifle to suit the mold.
My wife may not agree but makes sense to me.

What Lock would you guys use? Manton, Schuetzen, Enfield?

The "Lovell" pattern Enfield lock is the one that your barrel was made to fit, if it is a real PH barrel. However, since Birmingham stopped making them years ago, a real PH complete lock is awful hard to find. You actually/probably could find an original "Interchangeable Pattern" Lock that would also fit exactly and easier to find than a real PH repro lock. The parts in the originals and real PH locks from Birmingham are first rate

I would NOT use a crass repro, supposedly "PH" lock made in Italy by Navy Arms or EuroArms. Also you must be careful to get an Interchangeable Parts Pattern lock and not one made in Belgium or India, even if an original lock as they also won't fit.

Gus

Just read your latest post, after I just got done typing the above. So much of the above does not apply, except your barrel probably won't fit the Musketoon Stock.

Pedersoli came out with their Enfields after I stopped working the NSSA Nationals, so I have almost no experience with them. Though their locks and parts are probably better than those made by Navy Arms or EuroArms, they won't be of the same quality as the originals. That means you are going to have to do a lot more work to get a fine trigger pull with their lock.

Gus

 

[LawrenceA]

Sorry Gus
Getting confusing I know.
The Whitworth Barrel is a new Pedersoli. No lock, no stock.

I just happen to have also purchased a complete Musketoon.

I think I will get the barrel so I will see if it fits.

If not then I could go any percussion lock for an English Percussion Target rifle or maybe even Schuetzen. I just don't know anything about what sort of lock would be a good choice to emulate an English target rifle.

 

[Artificer]

P.S. One huge advantage for doing trigger jobs on Original or Original PH Locks from Birmingham for the Whitworth Rifle was they had a fly in the tumbler. Tumblers in "regular" locks did not have a fly, nor were the tumblers cut for a fly.

I would contact VTI gun parts to see whether Pedersoli makes the "Whitworth" Tumbler with a fly in it AND that it interchanges with their regular Enfield locks, which it should. If they don't know, then I would contact Pedersoli Directly.
https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/and
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/contatti.asp?l=en
The "Whitworth Tumbler with a Fly in it" will allow you to use single or double set triggers and trust me, that will be far, FAR easier to get a good trigger pull.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh, you may also be interested in the following forum thread:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/target-shooting.16500/
Gus

 

[LawrenceA]

Thank you Gus. Very interesting

 

[Artificer]

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Lawrence .There would be just two options other than the service issue WW .One would be a Full match half stocked pistol gripped affair not too exceed ten pounds. Or a Military match Volunteers style rifle . Essencialy A more refined Govt style .I know nothing of fly's fitted or set triggers the idea was to enhance military rifle shooting ability . WW th's might have led the field early on but where eclipsed by the Rigby's & Metford's that followed .Some of the best shooting ever done at long range was using ML & B L match rifles of 451 & 461 . But they where from Govt prospective a blind alley once the Lee Metford was adopted . If your WW brl fitted the Carbine it would be a odd duck but you could try it out . I made two military match rifles using spare Martini Henry brl's which where about at that time might been better if a bit heavier brl but they where found to shoot fine if I never shot beyound 900 yards UK NRA style .
From a personal angle I reckon the 451 's are brutal 'over kill' at less than 300 yards where a 38 one in 18 " pitch would do all that's required with less powder, lead & hammered shoulders . But then I took the patch round ball flint route and never much got back to long range not having the ranges to shoot on . A slippery slope , I became a snap matchlock devotee ,A veritable ' virtuoso on the concert Arquebuss' ! .considered,' hand gonnes' whats next ? Rocks & Nautey words at thirty paces perhaps ? .

If you choose to go the Full match route PM me Ive made them up if using Tony Hawkins NZ made 450 cal Brls of 1 in 20' pitch .( though finding one today could be hard ) bar in wood small Enfield size lock works I've even used the once available Numrich plugs sold to use Trapdoor stocks fitted up with a new brl other than the sights & a plain Butt plate there isn't much else to them & you seem to be good at stock work .
Regards Rudyard
c .

 

[LawrenceA]

Hi Rudyard

Rocks & Nautey words at thirty paces perhaps ?

Maybe watch Braveheart for ideas!

I think I am luvin Dibuk's "build something to suit".
I was looking at Pecatonia and Jebediah and they both do a Rigby rifle (I never new there was Rigby style rifling) and I see a few other like Chambers and TOTW do English rifles so I can see a few options. I quite like the look of them especially for long range. Then I thought maybe one of those Park guns or whatever they are called that Feltwad shows.

As I get the Musketoon this weekend and hopefully the barrel next week or so I can see if it fits. For a bit of a laugh if nothing else.

Maybe an L&R Bar lock not sure about the rest.
If the Musketoon stock fits then I know that I could use an Enfield stock if 1 were to become available.
More likley I will drag out the rasps and find a bit of tree to convert to sawdust.

Always build another Matchlock! fancy that a long range Arquebus! With Vernier Tang sight and double set Slowmatch. Might fit a tactical grip and piccatinny rail. The mind boggles.

Thanks about the comment on stock work. Any skill is a shock to me.
But seriously I am now thinking half stock English Rifle. Depending on barrel weight it will be styled more toward Hunter vs Target. Not that I can see much difference.

 

[Rudyard]

Alex Henry made sporting/ match rifles' . Full match' has no ram rod being purely a range rifle . Suggest you look up ' The Target Rifle in Australia ' by Corcoran it goes into target 451's if you cant find I have some in stock .' Arms in the Service of Queensland' might appeal to you by Robinson , again I've it in stock . Full match is pretty well a' Free Rifle' other than the NRA (UK) 10 pound limit . All a M lock Arquebuss has to do is pepper the central 55 yards OH, MLAIC target ( unless you fancy a rabbit or a Roo . ) Not too mind boggling . .Your stocking looks good to me, an old shotgun might give you the guard & B plate trigger too . See how you go .
Regards Rudyard

 

[LawrenceA]

You have it in stock?
You have a store?
Details please?

 

[Rudyard]

I used to sell books and have various titles in stock . US , UK, & Jager styles . Heelerau recently got a M lock I made up for him I have mounts sand cast yellow brass various styles I've made a lot of ML guns over many years some went to Australia. I like early & ethnological stuff. ( Own no factory stuff roll my own sort of .)Ide say I was familiar with most ML ing guns, Though the subject is vast .. of course Heelerau has my E.
Regards Rudyard

 

[fleener]

If you are looking at building a English Sporting Rifle around that barrel and are looking for a lock there is at least one option. Rod England makes a very good lock that is setup for his Alex Henry style English Sporting Rifle. The pressure generated by these rifles shooting bullets takes a special breach plug IMO if you are going to do it right. I do not know of anyone that is making a plug that I would buy, except for Rod. These plugs have a shoulder that the nipple fits into at the bottom of the hole. Helps reduce the amount of surface area on the face of the nipple and also keeps the threads clean. He also sell all the parts and pieces to build a complete rifle. He is in the USA.

If you want his email PM me.

Fleener

 

[Bad Karma]

Pecatonica is the place to find a stock for your sporting rifle... send the barrel and lock to them for fitting and finish it yourself?

 

[jimairwin]

I have been offered a new Whitworth Barrel.
Anyone know if it would fit in a PH Musketoon stock?
Is it worth building a gun around?

I have been making scale model cannon over 60 years, Have sought but have never found a Whitworth barrel so as to make a scale Whitworth cannon. Would dearly love to find such a barrel now.
"Cannonball"

 

[Rudyard]

Good to hear Rod has kept to his very able skills He was doing Vincents & Shutzens .Maybe he bought the Don Brown tooling either way good on him. Now he,s' Got a real job!'.
Regards Rudyard