What's it worth?

[Lock Nut]

This question is primarily directed toward gun builders that build for a living, for hire or those just making an extra buck.
How does one determine that value of a ML rifle?
Time and material, a set cost just to build one, hourly?
Some say if your a nobody, One can't expect top dollar for a build even if the quality of workmanship is there. I disagree. But it also seems the value of MLs aren't what they used to be lets say 15-20 years ago.

The reason I ask is I like to build and sometimes will build an extra for sale. Not trying to retire from them but don't want to just give it away either. Just looking to determine a fair price. Any thoughts?

 

[galamb]

I am a hobby builder.

I DO NOT build to order and never will (too many potential misconceptions on both sides).

I build rifles "I" like and they are almost always for sale.

Pricing is where the tough part comes in. I shoot the rifles I build so they are "kinda used" when they are sold (but usually well less than a year old, so not like they have been kicked around and have "battle scars", but a little more than simply "test fired" or "sighted".

Despite that I would NOT sell them for less than the cost of the parts plus a little for the "future build jar".

If I have 600-700 bucks into the gun I would generally look for 800-850 from it. So if I'm "lucky", a buck an hour for my time - which is why I'm a "hobby builder" and not a "rifle builder".

Without "name recognition" it's difficult to get a significant premium for "your time".

Even if you are recognized that doesn't translate into $$$$

Maybe this will help -

Matt/TVM charges $680 for a Leman kit (brass mounted) and $1100 for a finished rifle = $420 for his time to build/finish the rifle.
(counts on "add on's" to bump the price up and make money)

Mike Brooks charges $900 plus the cost of the kit to build a kit from one of the suppliers = $900 for his time
(same with Mike - you want "carving", open your wallet)

Tip Curtis probably falls somewhere in the middle of the two above in terms of what he gets for "his time".

If you want to triple your investment you better have a long waiting list, have won some contests with your rifles (such as Dixon's, CLA etc)

I guess my point is. For the "average" builder wanting to make a "few extra bucks", a 50-75% premium on the cost of the parts is probably "in the range", and if you want 2X the cost of parts you better be doing some "fine work".

 

[kaintuck]

X2 with galamb, it's the fun in building, then when your done....asking price will be parts plus how much you like the rifle.
I have built for close friends, and we agree beforehand how much.....that way we are still friends.
There are those that DONT enjoy building, or have the time or place, but like the rifles a lot, and so they need a builder....like I need a car mechanic....as I hate working on vehicles, don't have the shop or tools..... :idunno:
So, if I have a rifle that I built to sell, then I understand what others are charging, and price the same.....use the money for the next one.....

Dave keck needs $
Barbie chambers needs $
Dunlaps woods needs the $
Tip or TOTW needs some too...!
And I just every now and then get custom parts made from different artisans ......so the buyers money is spread out from me to others... :grin:
Flintlocks won PB or carving....850-1200?
Add PB ~ 250.00
Carving?200.00 and up...
Handmade custom barrel......add 250-350
Some builders get more......if there are extras or really perfect work, like some we have seen here......like the fellow that makes "fence posts"....his rifles would auction in the field for 15K or better :shocked2:
Then there's old names that forge the iron pieces one at a time....$$$ :shocked2:
I've seen 25K on those........ :shocked2:

But, I pay for a quality job from, Dave and Barbie, and dunlaps....I never try to get a better price....so it's the same with me......I try to make nice rifles.....albeit, in my own way :stir: , and when they're done....some else can have them if they want......
All except that lil cherry stocked 32cal Mtn rifle :hmm:
That one stays here.... :rotf:

 

[Vaino]

I've sold 4 LRs on TOW's consignment sales and found that it's a good way to "learn" how much one can get for their builds. Sure Dave Ripplinger of TOW adds his 33% to your price....but in the end, I learned a few things.

First off, the maximum price the LR sells for, whether or not Dave thinks he'll sell your LR considering the amount due you plus his markup, how else does an unknown builder become known and establish a reputation and that some styles of LRs sell for more money and also sell more quickly.

Some who send their MLers to TOW to sell complain that Dave tries to lower the amount due them. Dave sees and sells a whole lot of MLers and is a good judge of quality and appeal and much can be learned from him as to what sells and for how much.....and also what one has to do to increase the selling price w/ improved quality, etc.

I know for a fact that my exposure at TOW's website has increased the prices for my spec LRs that I sell...much more than I thought possible at the beginning. This might not happen w/ some builders due to a variety of flaws in their workmanship or bad designs.

Judging from the number of MLers for sale on TOW's website, many builders realize the advantages of TOW's exposure.....Fred

 

[Dane]

Fair price? What is a gun worth? Several things go into that equation.
Some builders can make a $400 gun out of $1000 worth of parts.
Some can make a $4000 gun out of $1000 worth of parts. You can own and shoot that gun for 10 years, and it's still worth $4000 to the right person
What is the difference?
Builders ability and reputation, the proper architecture and execution, quality and uniqueness of the piece, and a whole lot more.
I won't mention names to protect the innocent, but we all know who they are.
Also, it's only worth that much to someone who perceives, and understands it's value.
Even geographical area comes into play. For example, I build mid priced, Penn/Ky rifles in AZ. I have to sell them in the Northeast, because no one in AZ wants to spend that kind of money on a custom gun. Everyone seems to think you can build a $1200 gun for $1000 worth of parts and 150hrs of labor.
I can sell that same gun on either coast for $3500.
Go figure.
Ok, I'm done rambling. Bottom line, I don't think there is a magic answer, there is just so much that comes into play.
I can say this for sure...... Only the TOP builders can actually make a living doing this. If you're not doing it just because you enjoy it...... Stop it!!! You're NOT going to get rich.

 

[Vaino]

I'm actually making money doing my rehab every morning for a few hrs of shop work. Building LRs is pure enjoyment and sets the tenor for the remainder of the day.

I agree w/ you completely.....pricing is very subjective and complicated.....whether selling or buying.....Fred

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Fair price? What is a gun worth? Several things go into that equation.
Some builders can make a $400 gun out of $1000 worth of parts.
Some can make a $4000 gun out of $1000 worth of parts. You can own and shoot that gun for 10 years, and it's still worth $4000 to the right person
What is the difference?
Builders ability and reputation, the proper architecture and execution, quality and uniqueness of the piece, and a whole lot more.
I won't mention names to protect the innocent, but we all know who they are.
Also, it's only worth that much to someone who perceives, and understands it's value.

Very well put. Points that many have difficulty grasping.

Even geographical area comes into play. For example, I build mid priced, Penn/Ky rifles in AZ. I have to sell them in the Northeast, because no one in AZ wants to spend that kind of money on a custom gun. Everyone seems to think you can build a $1200 gun for $1000 worth of parts and 150hrs of labor.

I was with you up to this point :wink: ...as my bank account in AZ is lighter due to my LR affliction (your point is still valid; I agree the population density of knowledgable LR collectors is on the east coast). I don't commission builds, though; I watch for used LRs by very well-known makers that other owners put up for sale.

Regards,
Mike

 

[galamb]

I am only acquainted with a couple builders that get above the 3K mark for their rifles.

Both are retired from another profession that provides them with a pension that they could live off.

They build because they love it (most of the time) and I don't know if either would be doing it if "they had to make a living doing it".

(side track here to make a point).

On the Julia auction site they have two John Armstrong rifles. The more highly decorated of the two is estimated to fetch between 90K and 150K, with the "cheapie" valued in the 30-40K range.

At a recent auction an Armstrong valued at about 100K actually sold for somewhat over 225K.

The builder is sought after now and probably fair to say, back in the day as well.

John was born in 1772 and by 1790, at age of 18 had opened his shop. By 1800 he owned three pieces of property, business must have been good.

In 1813 he bought another piece of property, large enough to farm (believe it or not, "becoming" a farmer was considered a huge step up from a trade like gun building).

By 1819 business had turned and he had to mortgage his land. By 1822 he had to sell off his entire shop and disappears from gun building.
(some believe he traveled to the Bedford area to teach lock making - compare a Bedford lock to an Armstrong some time and draw your own conclusion)

In 1828 he shows up again and rents some space from his son - takes on an apprentice and by 1836 starts producing percussion rifles.

By 1838 he has scratched enough together to buy a 1/4 lot for 300 bucks but by 1841 is broke again and mortgages the lot for $100 and sells all his possessions.

In 1842 he dies a broke man living in near poverty.

(back to the present)

Who can "make a living" building guns - the owners of Traditions, T/C, CVA, Lyman figured out how to build a 1000 dollar rifle for 400 bucks and make money doing it. And once the margin wasn't there anymore they stopped building them.

Unfortunately, the "general muzzle loading public" can not afford or is unwilling to spend the money required to provide a contemporary builder with a decent living.

Given the cost of parts, even if you got 3K a rifle, if you made a dozen a year (and a 3K rifle could well take you a month to build) you would make a whopping 24K before taxes - hardly living the high life.

 

[Dane]

Graham,
Just to drag this out a bit more..... I know several that make a good living and support a family by building. While it does take a month to build a well made gun, you can build several at a time. Just like anything else, production is the essence of making a living.
To be realistic, these guys are getting $5k plus for a gun, finishing them in 3 weeks, but like I said, building 3 at a time.
It's a simple life, but a good one. Not going to get rich, but definitely make a living.

 

[Stophel]

I am only acquainted with a couple builders that get above the 3K mark for their rifles.

I should charge $3000 for a rifle, but don't. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of work involved in making a flintlock rifle, something which probably most people don't understand. The same with any other everyday thing. Most people no longer make anything or do anything with their hands, and they cannot comprehend how it can take a craftsman "so long" to do anything, thinking an all day job should only take a few minutes, as if all it takes is pushing a few buttons. (I see this every day with my "real job"... which still doesn't make me rich... I cut laminate countertops, not exactly a highly artistic type of craft but still a lot of hand work and fitting are required. And very often the customer is frustrated that I cannot simply wave my magic wand and presto, their tops are done in 5 minutes. Cutting and fitting and filing and finishing and hand work are TOTALLY beyond their comprehension...even with some building contractors!) Most reenactors DO understand it, though, but few can afford that. So the few guns I build I try to sell for a lesser price, but still not so low I'm simply killing myself working feverishly for nothing (I've done THAT too many times! I have sold guns in the past WAY too cheap!!!).

It does take a "big name" to sell a gun for what it's worth, actually. The rest of us simply could not get away with selling our guns for what it REALLY takes to make them. It's a labor of love... although I do find nothing more frustrating than gunsmithing....fussing and cursing the entire time... dang, why do I do it??? :haha:

 

[galamb]

Having to build three rifles at a time sounds like "work".

I think I'll stick to building what I like, when I want to work on them, or more importantly, "not work on them".

The best way to destroy something you love doing is turn it into a "job" where there are timelines and expectations.

 

[Stophel]

Having to build three rifles at a time sounds like "work".

I think I'll stick to building what I like, when I want to work on them, or more importantly, "not work on them".

The best way to destroy something you love doing is turn it into a "job" where there are timelines and expectations.

That's why I do not particularly enjoy commissioned work (though I have had NO problems, my customers have all been quite wonderful and patient, actually). I don't like being beholden to someone nor do I like deadlines or timelines. And, I don't like making someone wait if for some reason I cannot be working on their gun and things take longer than anticipated. I think it bothers me more than the buyer.

If everything went smoothly (it never does), and I had NOTHING else to do (like a real job), I could build a rifle (everything hand inletted and hand shaped) in about 3-4 weeks. Well, maybe.... I once built a "barn gun" for myself when I was in between jobs and I finished it in about 3 weeks. And I wasn't killing myself working on it. However, there is NO WAY I could work on more than one gun at a time. I cannot even have more than one project of any kind going at a time. If I decide to stop one project to work on another, I have to STOP the first project, set it aside, and not even think about it until the new project(s) is done. One thing at a time. A psychological disorder, perhaps, (one of many) but I cannot operate that way! :grin:

 

[Dane]

It IS work. That's what you do when you support a family.
We're talking about two separate things now.
I don't need to support a family, I do it for enjoyment and the pure joy of building.
You're right, I probably wouldn't enjoy it either. Just another job.
Quite often, I work on three at a time, but because I run into a part I don't like, (like I letting a but plate, or get stuck with an issue)so I work on something else for a while. When I'm clear headed, I'll go back to the original piece. Again, not for speed, just for clarity.

 

[galamb]

Sorry Panflash - we have kinda wandered from directly answering your question.

BUT, if you are considering taking building up for a living or a "substantial contributor" to your bank account, what we have been tossing around here is things you will need to consider.

If we count up all the hours of our work and even only billed at minimum wage, with the cost of parts a rifle would certainly sell for 3000 bucks.

And while that might "minimally" be what it is "really worth", if very few can afford that and no one wants to buy your product, then really it isn't worth anything....

So when you see that rifle listed for 6K, put it in perspective - if the builder spent 300 hours on it, after deducting the cost of parts, they aren't even pulling down 20 bucks an hour - and they only get paid if they have an order...

 

[Col. Batguano]

:thumbsup: That's why I won't take consignment work. At the end of the project, and the shipment, all you have is money, and perhaps some lessons learned in the build. It's a job. The only intangible inuring to you would be some education that you learned on the customer's dime.

If you look around, there probably aren't but

 

[Vaino]

"That's why I won't take consignment work." What do you mean? No big deal....just curious.....Fred

 

[Lock Nut]

Is the value affected on a rile that is fired or unfired? And,or in other words, do people prefer the rifle tested and sighted in or left unfired when buying a new ML?

 

[galamb]

I personally wouldn't sell a rifle I built unless it was "test fired" at the very least.

I trust the suppliers of the parts and am careful/meticulous about assembling, in particular, the most dangerous pieces (breech plug, drum, liner etc).

But I'm not going to hand over a rifle not knowing if maybe the casting was bad on the breech and have it go "boom" in the wrong direction the first time someone pulls the trigger.

Now having said that, there is some different points of view to consider here.

A hobby builder or a pro/semi-pro that doesn't "build to order" is generally building for themselves "initially". They will generally fire the gun, sight it in, maybe use it a few times with it "always being for sale".

If it doesn't sell it will most likely be used - perhaps not all the time, but I won't let one sit in the gun safe for "years" even if I plan on selling it.

If you are going to build a custom order then "those details" will be worked out with the buyer. Do they want you to test it? sight it? - maybe they don't plan on shooting it so want it pristine.

If you do fire it/sight it AND it was not decided by the buyer/potential buyer then yes, it absolutely drops the price (by how much? too many variables to place a value).

But just think about a T/C - used 50 cal $250 - "new in box" $400 - whether it was shot once or 500 times it's "used" if no specific buyer was involved in that process.

 

[Stophel]

I would never send anything out without test firing. You have to make sure everything is working properly (modern gun factories test fire too, if only once). I don't try to sight it in, but I want to get it reasonably close, so the new owner can do that himself.

Besides, a lot of people want their guns to look used anyway! :haha:

 

[galamb]

Also, I don't know what the liability would be on a "made to order rifle".

If I sell a "used rifle", even if I was the builder, it's still "used" and the buyer has some obligation to ensure that the rifle is serviceable by getting the second opinion of a local gunsmith etc (unless your particular jurisdiction has some provisions like some do with "used cars"?????).

If I hold it out as a "new, unfired, just built etc" there is now some "warranty of merchant-ability" even if I don't provide a specific warranty.

Something that you may consult a lawyer about if you plan on taking that route - you don't want to lose everything because some "novice" blows himself up and claims it's "your fault".