wheel weights

You're right/wrong/sorta - Fadala was correct in that obturation is important to RB accuracy, just as it is in any ML's accuracy, be it with minnieball, plain undersized bullets, or patched Ball. It allows loading of bullets/patch/wad combinations that are easily loaded, but shoot well without gas cutting, even though the pressurs are fairly high. The ball HAS to obturate (when large charges are used) in order to prevent gas from cutting the cloth patch, destroying accuracy and fouling the bore excessively. A very strong weave is also needed and is why Denim cloth is popular(up here& probably elsewhere). It's as strong as ticking but much less expensive (here).
: S.Fadala loads smaller combo's than many do, and that's why he has to put a barrier between the powder and the patched ball to prevent gas cutting. To this day he claims the patch isn't a gasget & it isn't, in HIS rifles. Along with obturation, the patch handles the job of grippng the grouves. His wadding (hornet nest) protects his ball/patch from being burned through, which happend until he used a wadding. In our rifles, the patch is a gasget. It prevents gas cutting along with the ball's obturation, tightening the hold on the bottom of he grouves.
: We also put wad/s between the powder and the bullet in a BP ctg. gun to prevent gas blowby prior to full obturation of the bullet. This is to prevent leading of the bore ahead of the chamber & in effect, for the entire trip down the barrel.(along with the lube to keep the fouling soft)
: With small charges(for bore size) in pistols, much thinner combo's can be used, due to the low pressure not as prone to gas cutting, even though the pressure is too low for proper bll obturation. A .54 single shot pistol is a prime example - or any of the truley big bores up to .75 cal. pistols. A very skimpy patch may be used, as 20 to 25gr. powder charges were the common load. In my .45 barrel, for instance, the combination has to be tighter to maintain accuracy as I like to shoot at least 1,000fps and that takes 34gr. 3F. It also requires as least a .015 patch. More powder, up to 50gr. for 1,385fps, requires a thicker patch to maintain accuracy without blowthrough. As with rifles, the heavier the load and therefore pressure, the tighter the combo has to be, to the point that obturation is also necessary to hold back the some 15,000LUP behind it without it cutting past the ball and ruining accuracy along with fouling the bore.
Daryl

 

[musketman]

If it were not deforming due to obturation it would not pick up its spin from the rifleing grooves properly and would "keyhole" the target.

I hate it when I use too loose of a patch and the round balls start to keyhole the target... :curse:

That get's my goat, and I only got two left... :haha:

 

[Zonie]

Mooskeetman: Iffen ye could make a movie o yer gun a firin, and slow it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down what ye would see with that big ole smoothbore ye shoot would look like a big ole bowling ball a spinnin with some sort o english on it knockin down anythin what gets in its way.
It not only keyholes, it knocks tha whole lock offen tha door! :: ::

 

If it were not deforming due to obturation it would not pick up its spin from the rifleing grooves properly and would "keyhole" the target.

I hate it when I use too loose of a patch and the round balls start to keyhole the target... :curse:

That get's my goat, and I only got two left... :haha:

Bawwwwwwwww-Hawwwwwwwwwwwwww
::. I love this place.

 

[Crow-Feather]

When you start usin wheel weights, you start the slide down the slippery slope. Next, you will try - uggggh! sabots - then on to eccch! pistol bullets. Pretty soon, your flicken a lever to open a the back end of your rifle gun.

In all the movies and books on the fur trapper erra, I never saw or heard of a wheel weight on a wagon wheel.

C F

 

[2172]

Deadeye, no, I'm not sure it is linotype. I assumed it was
'cause it had letters on it, backwards...it is sorta 'jointed',i.e., each letter is on a separate piece that is lightly joined to the next. The back is a white, spongy, rubber material, stuck on...I don't know what it is, and haven't thrown any in the pot, 'cause I didn't want to deal with the scum that'd form from the junk on the metal. Do you have any idea what it is?
Hank

 

[squirejohn]

Daryl- Your explanation of obturation and pressure explains and describes pretty much the experiences I've gone through with different firearms and loads. The afrorementioned load in my .45c uses a big ball and thin patch and is quite accurate, but I only use a small amount of powder and have not experienced any blowback that I'm aware of - the recovered patches look fine. However I do have to clean after every shot - but this is the way with ALL of my ML's.
I also have another GMB only this one is a .50c. The only load that was accurate (after lots & lots of testing) was a .500c ball 90g of 2F and a teflon coated pillow ticking barrel. This needed to be driven down the barrel with a hammer to get started and finished with a metal range rod. Accuracy with this combo was excellent whereas all others were very inaccurate. In another .50c I used 75g of 2F, 0.500 ball with a 0.020 cotton patch - hard to load. I could also use 65g of 3F ok but needed hornets nest over the powder to prevent blowby. My wifes .50c Getz uses a 490 ball with 65g of 3F and a 0.015 cotton patch. However this gun will digest just about any load/patch combo and maintain good accuracy. In my .45c pistol it's 25g, 3F & a0.015 patch. In my .54c smoothbore pistol it's .527 ball,30g of 3F & .005 spit patch. Actually I shoot it just as good (bad) without any patch. In all of the guns i've had I had to spend quite a bit of time developing accurate loads - different size balls, patches & powder.
I never really paid any attention to the effect of obturation until I recovered a few balls from the .45c rifle and couldn't detect any change in ball size.
Your response about blowby and a dirty barrel makes we wonder if I am experiencing some blowby since I clean after every shot & would need to after 3 or 4 because of fouling.
Many shooters on this forum have stated they can "shoot all day " without swabbing. Swabbing after every shot is a pain so I'm going to try a few different combinations e.g. - smaller ball, thicker patch and more powder and see if it makes a difference. If so, then I'll test for accuracy.
PS A few years ago I was shooting next to another shooter who had the exact GMB .45c and was shooting the exact same load, powder, & patch/lube combo that I was. The only difference was his was a caplock. Although we shot side by side at a woodswalk he didn't need to clean once during the match where as I did. Go figure??? I guess all this variability is what makes this fun

 

[Ironwood]

It is my understanding the main purpose of the patch is to grip the ball and the rifling in order to impart a spin to the ball. That's why patch thickness is so important. I've shot both, balls made from wheelweights, and balls made of pure lead. The only difference I saw was the wheelweights took a little heavier slap to get them started and they didn't upset quiet as much in the dirt behind the target. If I were going to use a patched ball for hunting I think I would use pure lead. JMHO.

 

Generally when the guys are getting bad fouling, we find they're skimping on lube(SPIT) or using something designed for modern guns with ALOX and BEESWAX.
: These might be GREAT for one shot, but they don't soften the fouling at all as they won't combine with bp fouling and you have to clean between shots.
: Lubes that soften the fouling when combined with the BP are the ones to use. For range use, spit works all day, day in day out - gotta be wet, tough. Some guys try to get by with damp, and their guns foul. The longer the barel, smooth or rilfing(especially) the more spit or lube you need. This may translate in merely adding more spit, or worse case, going to a smaller ball and thicker patch to hold more. Worse case because of cost.
; Of the comercial lubes (I only use these for hunting) for continual shootng, bore butter is probably one of the best. Spit bath and spit patch I haven't used since the 70's- can't remember back that far but I know I switched to my own spit.
: Hoppe's 9+ does work well as a patch lube too.Not Hoppes #9 solvent. Gotta be Hoppes 9+.
: I haven't tried WW balls smaller than .684's, however due to low pressures in the the large bores, they should be usable in 10 to 12 thou rifling down to .58 or maybe only .60 cal. Another reason makes them really hard to load in the smaller cals with the same depth rifling, is the RATIO of the rilfing depth to the bore size. The smaller bore you go, the greater the ratio, or deeper the ball thinks the rifling is and the more it has to deform in it's patch envelope. The WW ball resists due to being hard. The result is a por fit in the bottom of the grouves and gass cutting because it's too hard to obturate. The reason I started using them is because WW are easy to find. Pure lead is sometimes a b--- to find. The WW balls shot very well in the .684 balls shot wel inthe.69 with .015 patch and were farily easy to laod. Not as nice as pure lead, but easy enough for the tapered 7/16" rod.
: We've found best results in deep round bottom grouved barrels by substantially smaller balls and signifigantly thicker patches as otherwise, they're hard to load with a Hickory or Ramin rod. Personally, I prefer 10 to 12 thousanths, regardless of the bore size. In the large bores, it's all that's needed and allows hard balls, and in the smaller bores, these deeper-seeming grouves(ratio) and heavier bite on the ball/patch, helps prevent stripping from igher pressures.
: Deep Getz rifling in a .75 English rifle my buddy has, prevents him for shooting more than 3 ctgs. before he has to clean the rifle barrel. With the .69 and 12 thou rifling, I can fire ten ctgs. then load a patched ball with spit on the patch & 82gr. Firing that ball effectively cleans the barrel and it's down to one load's fouling - next to nothing because it's now soft.
Daryl

 

[squirejohn]

I've never used wheel weights so that ins't a factor re fouling and barrel swabbing after every shot. Also I've used commercial patches pre-lubed with bore butter and these also require swabbing after every shot. In cold waether I use a combination of beeswax & either carnola oil or bear oil. The bore butter is too stiff in cold weather. Sometimes I use spit patches. My patches are all pretty well lubed athough sometimes I do kinda run out of spit.
I might be able to go to a smaller size ball and thicker heavy lubed patch but I feel accuracy would fall off. The info I received from GMB states that for best accuracy to use a .451 ball in their .45c barrel. I have taken their advice and the gun is quite accurate. However my eyes have gotten so bad that I can't realize the full accuracy potential. The only way for me to do that would be to temporarily install a scope.

 

You're using a .451 ball in the .45 GM barrel? That's a ctg. barrel or RB barrel?
: I'm using .440 balls with .018 to .020 (however hard you compress when measuring)with excellent accuracy - 2" at 100yds off the bags with a flinter.
: I'll be trying .445's next time out - same patch & no reason to change due to .010" rifling.
; I've never cleaned btween shots.
: As far as WW RB's - that's for BIG bores, not tiny little ones like .45 and 50 or .54. .58 might also be in that category, but I do know of one guy who uses WW RB's in his .58.

 

[squirejohn]

Both the .45 & .50c GMB barrels are roundball. The .45 has a 1 in 60 somthing twist and the .50 a 1 in 72. The .50 used to get clover leaf accuracy with a .500 rb and tefloncoated PT pach and 90g of 2F. However this gun had target sights. I don't use it anymore since it's a cap lock and I'm now addicted to flintlocks. At 50 yds. off the bench the best I can do with the .45 flinter is about 1.75". However primitive sights and poor eyes don't make for great groups. Since I do have some .440 balls, I'll give them a try with a .020 wonder lube patch and see what happens.