When did 4F powder come into use for pan priming ?

[kyron4]

From what I've read the pan of flintlocks was primed with the same powder used to load the main charge, likely around a 2F size granulation give or take. When did the use of a separate finer powder to prime come into use ? If regular "horn" powder worked in the pan why was there a need to good with a finer powder in a separate flask ? Was there some advantage to using a finer powder ? Is this more of a modern development ? Just curious. -Thanks

 

[Brokennock]

From what I've read the pan of flintlocks was primed with the same powder used to load the main charge, likely around a 2F size granulation give or take. When did the use of a separate finer powder to prime come into use ? If regular "horn" powder worked in the pan why was there a need to good with a finer powder in a separate flask ? Was there some advantage to using a finer powder ? Is this more of a modern development ? Just curious. -Thanks

Good question. Full disclaimer, I don't know for sure. I strongly suspect it was one of, or a combination of, two things.
Target shooting as a separate sport from practical application of shooting skills. Someone became convinced that their scores would be, or another's competitor's scores were, better with an easier to ignite "faster burning" powder in the pan.
And/or the marketing department got hold of the above idea and used it to market powder that otherwise they weren't selling.

 

[Grimord]

I believe that "priming powder" was in use in the early 1800's. A manifest for the 1834 rendezvous, according to Charles Larpenteur, listed "Rifle Powder" and "Pan Powder". How much earlier the so called "Pan Powder" was used I could not say.

 

[tenngun]

If you look at drawings of matchlock shooters you will note the ‘apostles’ small tubes with powder and ball pre loaded. Then a flask at their side for priming.
Although most frontiersman and hunters in more settled areas primed from their horn, a fine priming powder was known to earliest of shooting times.
I don’t know when F disingnation was first used, it’s done for sure in nineteenth century, the idea of musket powder, fine powder and pistol powder date back to seventeenth century at least.

 

[Jim]

I would think the finer powder ignites faster than coarser powder, so that would speed up ignition of the main charge.

 

[deerstalkert]

I would think the finer powder ignites faster than coarser powder, so that would speed up ignition of the main charge.

which of course is the entirety of the concept! there are so many things that influence ignition, that i dare to say that the grade of powder is just a small part. starting with spark's struck from the frizzen to powder moisture content to vent location, to vent size, to vent channel configuration, etc,etc.....
and i shoot muzzleloaders for the simplicity!

 

[tenngun]

which of course is the entirety of the concept! there are so many things that influence ignition, that i dare to say that the grade of powder is just a small part. starting with spark's struck from the frizzen to powder moisture content to vent location, to vent size, to vent channel configuration, etc,etc.....
and i shoot muzzleloaders for the simplicity!

Our guns are simple…not
All the advancements from hand gonne to Ar15 has been to make shooting less of a chore.
Flinters are a middle of tge road. A big improvement over match, not as simple as cap.
We are masochist after all.

 

[hanshi]

Just a thought here and likely a dumb one at that; but... A breakdown of old cartridge revolvers ammo shows pretty fine powder in the big case. This is how the old .45 Colt was able to reach velocities of 900+ fps and up. Also small c&b revolvers certainly benefitted from such powders. What I'm saying is that fine powder was around in ML days and it was logical to prime with it.

 

[david w]

Priming horns go way back. I suspect when powder fell through the screens, the finer powder wasn't always put back through the mill. It would be good economics to sell it as is.

 

[ffg]

Powder manufacturing and Shot Towers back in the day always fascinated me, would have loved to watch the process

 

[deerstalkert]

Powder manufacturing and Shot Towers back in the day always fascinated me, would have loved to watch the process

should you ever find yourself in Delaware, stop by the DuPont powder mills on the Brandywine. the entire site is fascinating and mega historic.

 

[david w]

should you ever find yourself in Delaware, stop by the DuPont powder mills on the Brandywine. the entire site is fascinating and mega historic.

Didn't that plant go ka-boom once?

 

[deerstalkert]

Didn't that plant go ka-boom once?

more then one time!
the milling sheds roof's are hinged to allow the pressure to go up. even so one of the Dupont's was killed in an explosion.

POWDER MILL EXPLOSION.; One of the Dupont's Mills Blown Up Thirteen Persons Killed and a Number Wounded.

• Give this article
• 
  
• 
  

Feb. 26, 1863

 

[Ranch 13]

There has almost alway been a priming powder. Some references say that 4f is preferred, altho 3f is commonly used. But the caveat is usually there that the finer powder will provide better ignition.
If you can find a print of the Hazard Powder company advertising chart, that shows no less the 4 types of powder , and the sizes of those powders in the chart are pretty interesting, in that the only ones that really line up with the sizes we use today is the mining and blasting powders. Some of the types of powder aren't listed in F sizes they are numbered instead. Something like Ducking 1,2,3 etc.
The Hazard powder mills ceased to exist when an exploding in 1913 completely demolished the entire facility.

 

[DuncNZ]

If you want to buy a good book on the history of black powder I recommend GUNPOWDER by Jack Kelly . It is available on Amazon etc

Gunpowder: Alchemy, Bombards, and Pyrotechnics : The History of the Explosive That Changed the World: Kelly, Jack: 9780465037223: Amazon.com: Books

 

[dave951]

I would think the finer powder ignites faster than coarser powder, so that would speed up ignition of the main charge.

Actually no, finer black powder ignites and burns at the same rate as coarser powder. What changes is the size of the "granule" of powder exposing more surface area. What that means is more of the powder is exposed to ignition meaning more of the powder is burning at that instant. That means more flame for the flash channel but even so, the powder is burning at the same rate.

 

[user 16256]

From what I've read the pan of flintlocks was primed with the same powder used to load the main charge, likely around a 2F size granulation give or take. When did the use of a separate finer powder to prime come into use ? If regular "horn" powder worked in the pan why was there a need to good with a finer powder in a separate flask ? Was there some advantage to using a finer powder ? Is this more of a modern development ? Just curious. -Thanks

The old way of making bp had no coatings. No graphite, no stabilizers or hardeners, no binders or emulsifiers. It was lighter, and it was not corned under tons of force. The three ingredients were ball milled to green powder, then wet corned and dried to different sizes. Some of it broke down into finer and finer particles as it was bouncing around in your horn, flask, or other container. These "fines" helped make whatever powder from your horn work as a decent priming powder. 2f does not work as good and is why priming powder has been around since black powder. Most common folk barley had enough money or barter to buy powder at all, let alone multiple sizes. Although any black powder can be ground down to make a priming powder. One could always just shake the flask or horn instead to speed up the normal process.

 

[steam1993]

If you want to buy a good book on the history of black powder I recommend GUNPOWDER by Jack Kelly . It is available on Amazon etc

Gunpowder: Alchemy, Bombards, and Pyrotechnics : The History of the Explosive That Changed the World: Kelly, Jack: 9780465037223: Amazon.com: Books

I have the book very instreting reading, I would recommended it to every one. A s someone who cannons and mortars I found a lot of history in it.

 

[DuncNZ]

It is winter here in New Zealand , yesterday I was chopping kindling for fire lighting , there is a large amount of kindling in one fire log and although it is the same wood as the rest of the firewood it has a smaller diameter , greater surface area, more edges for the flame to catch on , and burns faster making fire starting easier . This is exactly the same principle as using ffffg as an ignition source .