Where have all the production guns gone?

[smoothshooter]

Every retail outlet is showing almost everything sold out.

Did demand for BP guns spike with Kung Flu like smokeless guns? Is it the old supply chain story? Any idea when we'll see things free up? Really interested in a Halfstock flint .54 like the Investarms Gemman Hawken but they seem to be nowhere to be found.

Some are stranded in shipping containers that are not moving.
Some of the gun importers are bypassing ocean transport and are paying the higher shipping costs to have the goods air- freighted over.
That’s how my Pietta 1858 .44 Army that I had on backorder finally got here after a 4 month wait.

 

[B P Arn]

The China Virus hit the Italians hard. Lots of the gun company’s older hands died, or went ahead and retired early. Factories shut down.
The Chinese have been quietly buying up Italian famous label leather and fabric clothing and shoe shops and bringing thousands of workers in from China and replacing Italian workers with them. So much so that when China was pressured to stop international flights out of China, they complied except for daily flights to and from Italy; primarily workers and managers from Wuhan Province. So in effect Italy was getting a steady stream of Covid-infected Chinese nationals every day. China has enough influence there that the Italian government lacked the nerve to put a stop to it all. Just like here.
Sad.

 

[sheriff john]

"Primitive Weapons" seasons are now "Alternative Weapons" seasons. Archery seasons now allow crossbows (and spears). Some is an effort to attract more hunters as numbers of hunters dwindled and deer populations skyrocketed. "Historic weapons" are a niche market and manufacturers stay in business only when they make a profit. A new M/L hunter isn't likely to spend $500 on a sidelock when they can buy a plastic stocked inline for $150.

The muzzleloading "shoots" we enjoyed in the 60's are about as dead as the folks who enjoyed them - just like many other shooting interests. "We" have not done our part to bring new shooters on board. I blame the NRA in part for spending too much time/$ on politics and not enough on shooting sports. The fun is gone.

Advertisers can try to label AR's as a "sporting gun", but in truth, where's the fun competition with them? Other than high-end competitions where the average person is competing with shooters outfitted like Camp Perry contestants, I haven't seen any.

While I personally enjoy my traditional M/L's, I also know that if we're to get more people into the sport, some body better come up with some shoots that include the modern style front stuffers as well. We can convert some to the Historic arms, but not if they're left out of the fun and if it's not fun, we'll never get 'em hooked. Anyway..

 

[JHSA-President]

As someone who was looking to get into traditional muzzleloading this year {of all years}, it was very tricky. I got lucky, I think, in that Midway USA got in a small batch of Deerhunter percussions...they literally sold out in a day, but they were there for a moment, so I bought one. I could not find any black powder until a couple of weeks ago and no caps. To use the gun for this year's season I had to get an adapter for 209 primers and substitute powder. It worked but was not "traditional". The Deerhunter was also not the gun I really wanted by beggars can't be choosers. As a newby, I would say one thing...may be true for me, not for others...I am not much of a tinkerer...so buying an old, used gun and thinking about relining bores, replacing breech plugs whatever, that is beyond my skill set.

 

[springfield art]

Everyone I’ve talked to that sells the kits say they can’t keep them on shelves because there is so much interest. Manufacturers aren’t producing more to accommodate for the demand, it would cost more to adjust the production for a trend that ‘may not last’ according to their number crunchers.

When we look at production, the kits are shipped in batches, maybe quarterly each year. Usually in spring, a shipment of Traditions just came into Muzzle-Loaders.com, summer/fall for hunting season, and then for Christmas.

There will continue to be kits available for sale as there always have, January-February is just a seasonal lull in availability.

It may cost more initially, but investing in a semi-custom gun or kit will pay off in the long run.

 

[springfield art]

The China Virus hit the Italians hard. Lots of the gun company’s older hands died, or went ahead and retired early. Factories shut down.
The Chinese have been quietly buying up Italian famous label leather and fabric clothing and shoe shops and bringing thousands of workers in from China and replacing Italian workers with them. So much so that when China was pressured to stop international flights out of China, they complied except for daily flights to and from Italy; primarily workers and managers from Wuhan Province. So in effect Italy was getting a steady stream of Covid-infected Chinese nationals every day. China has enough influence there that the Italian government lacked the nerve to put a stop to it all. Just like here.
Sad.

I've read this. They can say 'Made in Italy' but it's actually the Chinese workers doing the sewing; one has to admit they do excellent work, but you can get the same stuff on Canal Street in NY City, just sayin'. Although I don't approve of counterfeit labelled goods.

 

[Mad L]

"Production guns" require a factory to build, unlike a small private work out the barn builder.
1) Factories and businesses where shut down since China virus.
2) The bulk of 'production' guns came from Europe.
3) Europe, unlike America, can not offer a gun for sell to the public untill it passes their Proofing (another 'factory' it has to go through - also shut down)
4) Here in America there are still ships waiting to reach port.
5) Once a ship reaches port it needs to be unloaded and contents transported to destinations.

So there you have it, in a nutshell.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

2) The bulk of 'production' guns came from Europe.
3) Europe, unlike America, can not offer a gun for sell to the public until it passes their Proofing (another 'factory' it has to go through - also shut down)

Not just Europe but mostly Italy..., which was hammered by COVID.
Spain didn't do much better...

LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

One of the major tenants of the NMLRA is to get young people interested in muzzleloading.

You can have policies and other good intentions but face it, Walt Disney's Davy Crockett movie and the frontier movies that followed, along with the Civil War Centennial fed the whole rebirth in the 1960 into the 1970's. There hasn't been a block buster movie with muzzle loaders since The Patriot. and Last of the Mohicans. Besides which, current public media sentiment is against showing firearms in a good light.

Maybe a traveling road show for young people, instructors, guns and supplies, perhaps a celebrity, teaching about and giving a taste of shooting a muzzle loader. Go from sportsmen's club to club with adequate publicity to draw attendants. Small encampment.

Demand drives production and prices. There simply isn't a current demand. Not worth tooling for mass production if the market for product doesn't exist.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Where have all the production guns gone??? Looking at the for sale section here, I'd say they are all in our hands. A fella can get about anything he wants & more guns are added in big numbers on a daily basis. What shortage?? Unless you insist on NIB I don't see a problem. New production will resume eventually & everything will be right with the world.

 

[stikshooter]

I bought them all! I have them all stacked up in my basement so I have everything. It’s my own conspiracy to deprive the American public!
Is that what you are looking for?

Did Joe plead to stay ? /Ed

 

[FishDFly]

"One of the major tenants of the NMLRA is to get young people interested in muzzleloading."

They have been saying that forever and they have not found out how to do it. They are having trouble maintaining the members they have. Youth do not have disposable income to spend.

It seems there are more guns for sale here now than in years past. Folks are selling what they do not need or do not have anyone to leave their used guns to. They are taking advantage of the ridiculous high prices. Sell some older stuff and buy up to what they could not afford before, i.e., custom.

 

[Daveboone]

It is worthwhile to google local auction houses in your area. There are several near me (upstate ny) that list their auctions on line (sometimes not strictly firearm auctions) and it isnt unusual to find MLers,. Very frequently in near new/new condition, cheaper than what they are going for on firearm specific auction sites.

 

[FishDFly]

Where I live, the pawn shops will not take traditional MLs.

There is one local gun shop that has three (3) rifles on consignment and they have been there over six (6) months with no one buying them.

Sad.

 

[doubleset]

I blame the NRA in part for spending too much time/$ on politics and not enough on shooting sports. The fun is gone.

With you on that. I dropped my NRA membership in 1994 after being a member for 20 years. Even then I was just fed up with the approach of its management and what I viewed as its increasing failure to provide the services to, and representation of, its members in ways that it claimed. Will rejoin when they straighten out their leadership mess. It is good to see alternative organizations developing. But for my own part, I won't even join a local club so long as it requires NRA membership, and their stranglehold on this and the approach they take is another example of their managerial approach. Just a personal choice I feel I have to live with. Sad, but that's the way I feel I have to go. Not even trying to convince anyone else.

Advertisers can try to label AR's as a "sporting gun", but in truth, where's the fun competition with them? Other than high-end competitions where the average person is competing with shooters outfitted like Camp Perry contestants, I haven't seen any.

The relatively small club I shoot my BP rifles at (as a non-member, since it requires NRA membership to join) offers monthly matches as well in High Power Rifle. I suspect this may be more prevalent than you think. Well, I hope, anyway. I can't shoot in those any longer since I can't "assume the position" as a result of prior skeletal damage.

 

[doubleset]

It is worthwhile to google local auction houses in your area.

There are some good online auctions now that frequently have some BP/Muzzle loaders in them. Here is an example: North Carolina HiBid Auctions. There are often interesting BP offerings, but they do tend to get bid up.

 

[doubleset]

Maybe a traveling road show for young people, instructors, guns and supplies, perhaps a celebrity, teaching about and giving a taste of shooting a muzzle loader. Go from sportsmen's club to club with adequate publicity to draw attendants. Small encampment.

I'm afraid this is an example of "if you build it, they will come" (but often, they just don't ) or of Plato's view that "to know the good is to do the good" (ah, if only that were true). The view that education will somehow solve the problem. While I have sympathy with this, and you may attract a few people this way, I don't believe it can be effective in any significant way. There's too much competition for the required resources (money to spend on guns and accessories) to pull a lot of people away from the more widespread (and easier to participate in) activities using modern guns and ammunition. Too many are just more interested in things like "practical pistol" and "tactical rifle", or even (somewhat ironically) "cowboy action shooting". Even my wife -- at the age of 72 -- took a tactical rifle course! It's a hard row to hoe, and then the seeds don't sprout.

 

[Rifleman1776]

When the craze for this avocation started in 1976 traditional styles were all that were available. A lot of rifles sold but stayed in the closet until deer season. Later when the inlines came on the market the interest in traditional styles dropped dramatically. The only buyers for traditional styles people like us who have an interest in both history and shooting the oldey style smoke poles.

 

[FishDFly]

Nicely said.

 

[stikshooter]

As someone who was looking to get into traditional muzzleloading this year {of all years}, it was very tricky. I got lucky, I think, in that Midway USA got in a small batch of Deerhunter percussions...they literally sold out in a day, but they were there for a moment, so I bought one. I could not find any black powder until a couple of weeks ago and no caps. To use the gun for this year's season I had to get an adapter for 209 primers and substitute powder. It worked but was not "traditional". The Deerhunter was also not the gun I really wanted by beggars can't be choosers. As a newby, I would say one thing...may be true for me, not for others...I am not much of a tinkerer...so buying an old, used gun and thinking about relining bores, replacing breech plugs whatever, that is beyond my skill set.

Just pick up the phone no skill involved!/Ed