Which Indian (from India) Brown Bess?

[Birdwatcher]

At reenactments down here (Texas) we are chronically short of Mexican soldados. Being a Texian is easy and fun, but soldaldos gotta wear wool and march and stand at attention and all that stuff.

So, more than a few guys switch teams at events as necessary. I expect I will too. Even without the gun it ain't cheap; uniform jacket, shako, knapsack, cartridge box etc..

In 1835/36 the Mexican army were using the Brit milsurp 3rd Model Brown Bess (AKA East India-pattern Brown Bess) left over from the Napoleonic Wars.

Dixie only makes a 2nd Model Bess, not bad at all at $1,000 and change, but it ain't the correct Bess and for reasons best know to Pedersoli it comes with a 14 1/2" length of pull, a deal-breaker for me (an inch too long, just makes a gun feel awkward as heck).

Loyalist Arms, Middlesex Trading and Veteran Arms all sell 3rd Model Besses.

Anyone here have any experience/preference between these?

Thanks,

Birdwatcher

 

[Grenadier1758]

My reenacting experience has been with a Long Land Pattern Musket and a sergeant's carbine. Some members of the unit have used the Middlesex village muskets.

My recommendation for reenactments is to get the Loyalist Arms Third Land Pattern. Loyalist seems to have the best service record of late and the best customer response. We have found that the Loyalist Arms need the least tuning of locks to fire reliably and they have held up firing with ball.

 

[hunts4deer]

Of all the India-made gun vendors, Loyalist Arms in Nova Scotia seems to produce the best quality ones. Our local Fort historian just purchased from Veteran Arms and ended up returning the guns because the fit, finish, and function was unacceptable. Try Loyalist.

 

[AZbpBurner]

Scratch Middlesex from the list. Poor service, complete lack of communications to the point I'm speculating the guy's wife killed him & buried him somewhere out back - no replies on queries in the past from her either. He apparently has a full-time job repairing the crappy locks he sends out. Mine was made with soft internal parts, and after repair, he just straightened out a bent sear & sent it back without any hardening. Turnaround took several months. His lifetime gurantee isn't worth dookie from my experience. After case hardening the parts, I now have an excellent quality lock, and the Ketland Fusil is my favorite smoothbore.

Loyalist is everything that Middlesex isn't: prompt and informative. Keep in mind that the India-made guns should be considered an assembled kit, since they will need some fit & finishing to make them look acceptable. I got a Fusil de Chasse from them and requested no stain or finish. It arrived soaked in some kind of Indian preservative grease that I was able to remove before fitting all furniture, sanding staining & finishing. It looks nice now, but did take some work.

The Loyalist lock worked correctly right outta the box.

 

[satwel]

I picked up an Indian pattern Bess from a reenactor who bought it new from Loyalist Arms. He used it as a prop and never fired it. It is a reasonably accurate reproduction compared to an original. The wood to metal fit is quite nice. Like all repros from India, the stock is too thick in many places. The lock has very powerful springs. The frizzen is nicely hardened and produces an impressive shower of bright sparks and shows no evidence of gouging. Whoever hardened the frizzen really knew what they were doing. It may be the fastest of all the flintlocks I own. There is almost no delay between the pan igniting and the main charge going off.

My big complaint with this musket is the trigger pull is hard to the point of being comical. Careful, accurate shooting is impossible as it takes so much effort to pull the trigger. I've only had it out to the range twice and it shoots well once you get the trigger to release.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with it. After I bought it, I was told by a knowledgeable muzzleloading gunsmith, that in his opinion, Loyalist Arms sells the best of the repros coming out of India.
One of these days I'll address the trigger pull issue and thin the stock because I think it could be a very nice shooting musket.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have owned Four Loyalist Arms, India Origin, black powder guns. Two Bess, One Sgt. Carbine, and one Trade gun. I still own three, with the first bess sold to another reenactor.

I also live fire and hunt with them.

LD

 

[Alden]

I have bought many India-made-arms from Loyalist over the decades going as far back as the first LLP Model Bess' imported. They are at least as good as the best there is all things considered, meaning, they're still guns from India at the end of the day so comparison is relative.

 

[greggholmes]

i got mine from middlesex

 

[Michael Chambers]

Kind of close, but possibly not exact. You can also get a parts set for an original British East India Company P-1771 Brown Bess Flintlock - Nepalese Gurkha marked lock from International Military Antiques for $695, but I would recommend paying the extra $69.50 for their hand-selected "Best in Stock".

It is the East India pattern Brown Bess like you're looking for, but, although the locks were made in England, most of the rest of the musket was made in India, including the barrel, which is reportedly very strong. What you get is almost all original, 200+/- year old hardware, lock and barrel, and a new, 95% inletted hardwood stock. They have already mounted a new trigger into the stock, and you also get new lock and barrel tang screws, and new sling swivels, but everything else is new.

I just took delivery of one of their hand-picked sets, and it's in great condition, considering its age. It's going to take some work to restore and build it, but I'm quite confident that it will proof out as a shooter. There is absolutely no wear showing on the lock frizzen, and I'm thinking that my lock was never used.

 

[spudnut]

I have owned Four Loyalist Arms, India Origin, black powder guns. Two Bess, One Sgt. Carbine, and one Trade gun. I still own three, with the first bess sold to another reenactor.

I also live fire and hunt with them.

LD

How do you like the trade gun? I need a lighter gun than my LLP

 

[Loyalist Dave]

UMMM... the trade gun isn't all that "light". The Asian wood they use is pretty dense to try an approximate walnut. My Pedersoli trade gun is much lighter, and I'd recommend that in a kit if you are looking for light AND saving money.

LD

 

[BillinOregon]

Loyalist consistently gets the best reviews for their Indian guns. I wish they made a copy of the Spanish Model 1752. Their US 1795 is tempting as well.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I've heard many of the Indian makers use Teak for the stocks, which might well be the closest thing they have to Walnut.

 

[spudnut]

Yea I see Dixie has a good price on the Pedersoli kit right now ,but I thought if I missed that Id go with the loyalist,trying to save money as quick as I can. If I can get what I want for my Bess I can get the TG and maybe a used ped or used Japanese Bess too

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't think it's teak..., then they'd be boat anchors, but it's heavy like walnut.

LD

 

[spudnut]

Still has to be lighter than a 46 inch barreled LLP :haha:

 

[Story]

Anyone ever get one of IMA's Third Models? English locks, Nepalese barrels?

https://www.ima-usa.com/collections...own-bess-flintlock-musket-untouched-condition
Nevermind, had to use the right search words.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/nepal-brown-bess-from-ima.114570/

 

[FlinterNick]

Stay clear of Middlesex. I know too many folks who were burned by Pete the owner and were stuck with poorly assembled and defective Brown Bess’s and Potsdam muskets. He never refunds or exchanges and backs off offering any type of service to his guns.

To top it off the owner is simply .... not a nice person and he does not live up to the product and service he claims to sell on his website.


The folks at loyalist do nice work and offer excellent customer service.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I have a MSV Bess that I bought second hand. It's a good shooter and has been trouble free.
I did contact Pete to ask about a getting a jaw screw or spare lock, but was told they would not sell a lock or lock parts by itself.
I would have to ship the gun to him. After looking at the huge number of negative reviews and horror stories about wait times for returned service pieces as long as a year - I decided that if mine ever need service I would just buy a new lock elsewhere and have it fitted to my gun by someone who is more responsible. There are a number of folks on this forum who can and will take a lock in for service.

 

[FlinterNick]

I have a MSV Bess that I bought second hand. It's a good shooter and has been trouble free.
I did contact Pete to ask about a getting a jaw screw or spare lock, but was told they would not sell a lock or lock parts by itself.
I would have to ship the gun to him. After looking at the huge number of negative reviews and horror stories about wait times for returned service pieces as long as a year - I decided that if mine ever need service I would just buy a new lock elsewhere and have it fitted to my gun by someone who is more responsible. There are a number of folks on this forum who can and will take a lock in for service.

This is why I don’t buy Indian made guns, for the reasons you’re stating. You shouldn’t have to buy an entire new lock for a gun.

Furthermore, replacing a lock is not as simple as it may sound, most of the time an entire lock replacement won’t work as an ideal fit, its usually at the cost of the stock.