I'm a new member considering my first kit and I'd love to benefit from all the experience I've been seeing on this forum. Style I like best is Haines and I'm leaning to the Jim Chambers kit becuase I've seen it at Dixon's Fair. All I've ever built was a KY pistol about 20 years ago but I have basic woodworking skills (sanding, staining) and most of the tools I'd need. Every Haines I've seen is nicely carved but I've never tried my hand at that. Interested in the opinions of those who've gone down this road.
Which "kit"?
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Thanks, Birddog. I've seen Dunlap's kits at Dixon's Fair also but Tip's is a new one on me. I've been to the Chambers & Dunlap website many times but I haven't found Tip on line anywhere. Does he keep a website?
Of the 3, which am I most likely to come out with a piece I can put on the wall after I come home from hunting instead of hiding it in the closet? I don't hurt myself with sharp tools and I've tackled a few of Norm Abram's projects but I'm a little worried about the precision required on one of these. I guess I'm asking which kit is least challenging for a beginner.
PS, I've seen some of your work online - WOW!
Of the 3, which am I most likely to come out with a piece I can put on the wall after I come home from hunting instead of hiding it in the closet? I don't hurt myself with sharp tools and I've tackled a few of Norm Abram's projects but I'm a little worried about the precision required on one of these. I guess I'm asking which kit is least challenging for a beginner.
PS, I've seen some of your work online - WOW!
I've been plugging away at Chamber's Isaac Haines rifle. The kit is good, nice quality. It is not a kit like a model car or a TC. It is a collection of parts. It is doable, but be realistic about your abilities. When they say 90% inlet that means the hardest 10 % is left. If you have more skill than I, which is still a pretty modest skill level, this should come out nice. Mine will get done eventually if I am patient. It will not be a work of art. If you have never tried making furniture or something similar using handtools this might be tough first project.
This is not a flame on Chambers. Like I say the parts are good qulaity. It is not an afternoon project however. At the same time you don't have to be professional cabinet maker to make one. What I am trying to say in my longwinded way is be realistic about your skills.
This is not a flame on Chambers. Like I say the parts are good qulaity. It is not an afternoon project however. At the same time you don't have to be professional cabinet maker to make one. What I am trying to say in my longwinded way is be realistic about your skills.
Thanks Keith. This bug bit me when I stumbled onto Chambers website a couple of winters ago but I didn't do it. I went to Dixon's Fair last summer and it started to itch again. What holds me back is not the chisel, scraper and sandpaper work - I've done some of that. It's not that I'm not patient - I have a T/C PA Hunter that drives roundballs like tacks so I can shoot anytime I like. It's getting the trigger positioned right so it's crisp, getting the tang bolt in right, the touch hole/pan positioning, etc. I guess my concern is spending a grand for a kit, anticipating a really nice, well functioning rifle but ending up with something much less. I'm like a kid first time on a high dive - it's either jump or turn around and climb down the ladder. I'll probably jump anytime now.
How far along are you with your Haines? Did you get the top of the line wood? Any words of wisdom for the tough parts I mentioned above?
How far along are you with your Haines? Did you get the top of the line wood? Any words of wisdom for the tough parts I mentioned above?
I got the basic wood. I didn't want to chance screwing up really nice wood.
I haven't got to the tang bolt, but it won't be too long. I don't want to think about it job that makes me nervous. So far I've found inletting to be tricky. The last little bit to get a good fit on the butt plate, lock, etc. is a challenge. You need a good fit, to much space looks bad. It is just detailed work. Someone with a little more skill than I could do this quicker and neater. If you don't have a lot of skill going slow will still produce a nice end product. Just don't expect to start Friday after work and be at the range Sunday. Unless of course you don't sleep. :haha:
I haven't got to the tang bolt, but it won't be too long. I don't want to think about it job that makes me nervous. So far I've found inletting to be tricky. The last little bit to get a good fit on the butt plate, lock, etc. is a challenge. You need a good fit, to much space looks bad. It is just detailed work. Someone with a little more skill than I could do this quicker and neater. If you don't have a lot of skill going slow will still produce a nice end product. Just don't expect to start Friday after work and be at the range Sunday. Unless of course you don't sleep. :haha:
Well, Keith it helps me a little just knowing someone else like me is out there working on one. Sounds like you are taking the best approach, slow but steady. I intend to do the same. When I order the kit, my only goal is to try to hunt with it the day after Xmas '05. Even that is a soft goal, I can hunt with my T/C if it's not ready. Best of luck on yours and thanks for your help.
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Finnwolf,
Neither Chambers, Dunlap, or Curtis' components are beginner's kits.
They are not kits at all.... they are component sets. There is much more involved than screwing together a bunch of pre-fit parts, sanding and finishing.
That would be a guns assembled "in the white". I believer Tip with do that as well. Each of these services of course cost money.
I am not trying to discourage you, but make sure you know what you are getting into.
Of the approx 30 guns I've built, (4) have been repairing and finishing kits that someone else started.
These sets are all good quality. Here is kinda the rundown.
Chambers.... #1 quality and authenticity, best locks. Kinda Pricey.
Dunlap...... #1 quality and authenticity. Made from same pattern that the Getz family developed. IMHO, the best wood value. For the same price, you can definitely get a wood upgrade.
Tip.... quality O.K., component quality good, price good. Sometimes a little shakey matching appropriate parts, etc.
All will make a quality gun, if you do your part. That is what makes a kit into a quality longrifle , or kindling for the fire place.
Sorry to ramble on. :yakyak:
:m2c:
Neither Chambers, Dunlap, or Curtis' components are beginner's kits.
They are not kits at all.... they are component sets. There is much more involved than screwing together a bunch of pre-fit parts, sanding and finishing.
That would be a guns assembled "in the white". I believer Tip with do that as well. Each of these services of course cost money.
I am not trying to discourage you, but make sure you know what you are getting into.
Of the approx 30 guns I've built, (4) have been repairing and finishing kits that someone else started.
These sets are all good quality. Here is kinda the rundown.
Chambers.... #1 quality and authenticity, best locks. Kinda Pricey.
Dunlap...... #1 quality and authenticity. Made from same pattern that the Getz family developed. IMHO, the best wood value. For the same price, you can definitely get a wood upgrade.
Tip.... quality O.K., component quality good, price good. Sometimes a little shakey matching appropriate parts, etc.
All will make a quality gun, if you do your part. That is what makes a kit into a quality longrifle , or kindling for the fire place.
Sorry to ramble on. :yakyak:
:m2c:
Another choice is Track of the Wolf. Some folks have delivery problems with them, some don't, I didn't. Basically the same price as the Dunlap. I will soon be ordering a Dunlap set in .40. The reason I am going with the Dunlap this time is a little better wood and a Rice barrel.
Also if drilling the lock holes worry you then look at Dunlap, his lockbolt holes are already drilled, or so I've heard.
Regardless of which set you order (notice I don't consider these "kits") you need to invest in a couple of books and videos. "Recreating the American Longrifle" and "The gunsmith of grenville county" should both be on your workbench. In fact these should be bought and read well ahead of time.
Tom Turpin has a good video about building both flintlocks and percussion. The Turpin video will answer a lot of your questions. If you want to see a real pro in action building from a blank, order the Hershall House video "Building the Kentucky Rifle"
Some of these techniques you really need a handle on before you start. Even with a set the building process should be planned out in advance including how you will accomplish each step. Always measure 3 times and cut once.
Take your time and be precise, particular try your best to make it perfect. It won't be. But by applying yourself it will be closer.
If you don't have a tool you need then put it aside until you get it. Don't stubbornly continue on and screw it up. Forget stubborn. It doesn't count in rifle building at all.
If your first set doesn't take you close to 200 hours to complete then it probabaly won't be something you'll want to hang over the fireplace. This project can't be hurried.
And don't worry about the carving. You got to learn to make a plain one look good before you can make a fancy one look good.
Also if drilling the lock holes worry you then look at Dunlap, his lockbolt holes are already drilled, or so I've heard.
Regardless of which set you order (notice I don't consider these "kits") you need to invest in a couple of books and videos. "Recreating the American Longrifle" and "The gunsmith of grenville county" should both be on your workbench. In fact these should be bought and read well ahead of time.
Tom Turpin has a good video about building both flintlocks and percussion. The Turpin video will answer a lot of your questions. If you want to see a real pro in action building from a blank, order the Hershall House video "Building the Kentucky Rifle"
Some of these techniques you really need a handle on before you start. Even with a set the building process should be planned out in advance including how you will accomplish each step. Always measure 3 times and cut once.
Take your time and be precise, particular try your best to make it perfect. It won't be. But by applying yourself it will be closer.
If you don't have a tool you need then put it aside until you get it. Don't stubbornly continue on and screw it up. Forget stubborn. It doesn't count in rifle building at all.
If your first set doesn't take you close to 200 hours to complete then it probabaly won't be something you'll want to hang over the fireplace. This project can't be hurried.
And don't worry about the carving. You got to learn to make a plain one look good before you can make a fancy one look good.
Thanks for the words of wisdom, Darkhorse. I will take heed. I've read Dixon's book and I'm looking around for Alexander's book (out of print). I'm in no rush and I enjoy the work so 200 hours is no problem. I'll take another look at the Dunlap kit. Thanks for the advice.
Peter Alexander's book "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" is very much still in print. Its offered at several places. Try Track of The Wolf for both Peters book and the one he coauthored "Recreating the American Longrifle."
If you get the Peter A. book be sure and get the cheaper one that has the ring binder. This allows it to lay open and stay that way on your chosen page.
But at the least, you really need both those books.
If you get the Peter A. book be sure and get the cheaper one that has the ring binder. This allows it to lay open and stay that way on your chosen page.
But at the least, you really need both those books.
To my knowledgs & after using 4 of his stocks, the lock bolt holes are not predrilled in the Dunlap stocks. I suppose if you had the lock inletted & the barrel fully inletted, it could be. But you can't (shouldn't) drill the holes til ya get the barrel, tang, lock in as you don't know where it is all gonna line up. (IMHO)
NONE of the kits mentioned by me (Dunlap, Chambers, Tip Curtis) are "Assembly Kits" like a T/C or GPR. The parts kits I am referring to are a box of parts to build a rifle with with a precarved stock. The precarve stock is rough shaped out & the inlets started for you.
Now, some dealers offer In-the-white hits & you disaessemble them finish all parts & slap it back together. (Tip is one of these venders)
Also, some guy brag on throwing one of these rifles together in 40 hours... I don't know how or what quality they end up with but there is no way I can do that. It takes me 2 hrs a day on thinking on it.... maybe they don't count that ???? Heck I been working ALL DAY inletting a trigger in a Jaeger & am still not done. Oh I got it in, but not done... Now I will be the first to admit I am not the brightest bulb in the pack & I am by no means fast, but to me all of this is something you must take yout time with & be sure, as errors look like crap... period... and I don't want one. If it takes me all day tomorrow to get this trigger in right & hitting the sear & etc. just right, fine. If it takes me 2 days.. fine. But I don't want it close or just OK, I want it the best I can possibly make it.... & perfection takes time, or at least it does for me.
So if you are a guy with very little patience, I suggest you buy a In-the-White kit, finish it & then decide if you want to tackle a entire build. It is not easy for a newbie... I don't care what anyone says. After you have built 15-20 of them you will look at certain things & say.... heck, that is nuthin.... Well, at one time that WAS something & an easy screw up for all of us...
And I don't mean to be discouraging at all, but you got to have patience with them, that is all there is to it. If it takes 3 months fine. If it takes ya a year, fine. It takes what it takes & if you push it you will have a mess...
Good Luck ! We will help ya ALL we can ! :thumbsup:
Birddog6
PS: Buy a set of Plans for the rifle you want to build. They will help you Tremendously... Also buy the book Gunsmiths of Grenville County. IMHO, it is the best builders book available now.
I wouldn't order a kit fro Tracks. Nice poeple but too many backorders on parts for me. I learned the hard way.
NONE of the kits mentioned by me (Dunlap, Chambers, Tip Curtis) are "Assembly Kits" like a T/C or GPR. The parts kits I am referring to are a box of parts to build a rifle with with a precarved stock. The precarve stock is rough shaped out & the inlets started for you.
Now, some dealers offer In-the-white hits & you disaessemble them finish all parts & slap it back together. (Tip is one of these venders)
Also, some guy brag on throwing one of these rifles together in 40 hours... I don't know how or what quality they end up with but there is no way I can do that. It takes me 2 hrs a day on thinking on it.... maybe they don't count that ???? Heck I been working ALL DAY inletting a trigger in a Jaeger & am still not done. Oh I got it in, but not done... Now I will be the first to admit I am not the brightest bulb in the pack & I am by no means fast, but to me all of this is something you must take yout time with & be sure, as errors look like crap... period... and I don't want one. If it takes me all day tomorrow to get this trigger in right & hitting the sear & etc. just right, fine. If it takes me 2 days.. fine. But I don't want it close or just OK, I want it the best I can possibly make it.... & perfection takes time, or at least it does for me.
So if you are a guy with very little patience, I suggest you buy a In-the-White kit, finish it & then decide if you want to tackle a entire build. It is not easy for a newbie... I don't care what anyone says. After you have built 15-20 of them you will look at certain things & say.... heck, that is nuthin.... Well, at one time that WAS something & an easy screw up for all of us...
And I don't mean to be discouraging at all, but you got to have patience with them, that is all there is to it. If it takes 3 months fine. If it takes ya a year, fine. It takes what it takes & if you push it you will have a mess...
Good Luck ! We will help ya ALL we can ! :thumbsup:
Birddog6
PS: Buy a set of Plans for the rifle you want to build. They will help you Tremendously... Also buy the book Gunsmiths of Grenville County. IMHO, it is the best builders book available now.
I wouldn't order a kit fro Tracks. Nice poeple but too many backorders on parts for me. I learned the hard way.
Guest
As stated above, I would get the book "The gunsmith of Grenville County" before you get any type of kit, and I would recomend you get about three of the better catalogs that are out there, such as TOTW, MBS and Log Cabin. They are valuable resources. Do some homework, it will pay off in the long run. :imo: :m2c: :redthumb:
All good advice, BD6. Patience is something I learned in my 30's and as I've said, I have no hard deadline in mind, other than it'd be nice to hunt with a new longrifle next December instead of my T/C. I will pick up the book and the plans when I finally go through with this. My worry is that by nature, I'm a perfectionist and I plan to go top of the line on the maple. I want the wood and the inletting to be top notch and I want a trigger that lets off crisp and a loak that touches the charge off fast. Like you, the thought of making a mistake and seeing it forever haunts me on this decision.
What are your thoughts on caliber? I've only ever fired a .50 but I'm thinking .54. What kind of recoil would that product on a 7 3/4 pound Hained with a 38" bbl?
Thanks, Finnwolf
What are your thoughts on caliber? I've only ever fired a .50 but I'm thinking .54. What kind of recoil would that product on a 7 3/4 pound Hained with a 38" bbl?
Thanks, Finnwolf
Finnwolf,
I recently ordered a set of parts for a Vincent Ohio rifle from TOTW about two weeks ago. This is my first attempt at building a rifle from parts. I received all of the parts within a week, with no backorders. I called them first to make sure they had everything in stock though. I have worked on it off and on for a total of about 15 hours and have already inletted the barrel and tang, inletted and mounted the butt plate, and inletted the side plate. I concur that you have to sometimes let it sit to think about it before tackling another chore, i.e. work up the courage to start tackling another part. So far I haven't run into any problems, except they sent the wrong trigger guard. That's one of the last parts that needs to be mounted, so it's no big deal. So far I'm very happy with my purchase. They have a nice web site which tells you what tools you will need also, which is a great help.
I recently ordered a set of parts for a Vincent Ohio rifle from TOTW about two weeks ago. This is my first attempt at building a rifle from parts. I received all of the parts within a week, with no backorders. I called them first to make sure they had everything in stock though. I have worked on it off and on for a total of about 15 hours and have already inletted the barrel and tang, inletted and mounted the butt plate, and inletted the side plate. I concur that you have to sometimes let it sit to think about it before tackling another chore, i.e. work up the courage to start tackling another part. So far I haven't run into any problems, except they sent the wrong trigger guard. That's one of the last parts that needs to be mounted, so it's no big deal. So far I'm very happy with my purchase. They have a nice web site which tells you what tools you will need also, which is a great help.
Hi Bioprof,
I'm a regular on TOW's website and I have their catalog from last year. It was a toss up between their Haines and Chamber's Haines but then I heard about some problems getting all the parts from them at once. Glad to hear you didn't have that problem. The Vincent rifle is a real looker, too. Good choice and best of luck to you. Just hearing from another first time builder encourages me.
Thanks,
Finnwolf
I'm a regular on TOW's website and I have their catalog from last year. It was a toss up between their Haines and Chamber's Haines but then I heard about some problems getting all the parts from them at once. Glad to hear you didn't have that problem. The Vincent rifle is a real looker, too. Good choice and best of luck to you. Just hearing from another first time builder encourages me.
Thanks,
Finnwolf
The Cabin creek kit I got was the York county rifle, as far as inletting goes barrel(tang needs inlet the rest of the way) and ramrod hole where done butt plate is started and trigger plate is started so position is located already just finish it.Lock mortise is cut in you will need to finish.Breach plug is installed and vent installed barrel is crowned. All dovetails are cut for lugs and both sights. I belive some of his rifle's may vary but you can ask whats diff about each one he offers I'm not getting a kick back for this just stating facts good quality parts .
If you are going to go with a Isaac haines, go with the .54 and it will weigh between 7.5 & 8" depending on the wood density. I have built several this way & have 2 more to build right now. (Both from Dunlaps) One is a .50 cal. "B" & the other is a .54 caliber C.
As far as making a mistake on it, just accept the fact it will not be perfect & go on. Every one I build I try to make perfect & I have never made one to my perfection. I try to do better on every one but there is always something I find I wished I had done differently, etc. Not that they are mistakes or wrong, just a different way could have made that slight change. Lots of times it is in the finishing. It seems like I work forever scraping & cleaning up & every single time I think I have every possible divot, someplace upon finishing one I find a file mark or a scraper mark or something that I could have put a lil more attention to.... Most of the time it is something nobody else will notice, but I see it because I want it perfect & I am looking for any tiny flaw....
I say Go For It ! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Birddog6
PS: I always suggest using the best wood you can afford... I have never had anyone complain about a Awesome piece of wood.... I have had several say "Dang, only thing I wish I would have done differently is use a better grade of wood"... Get the absolute best you can afford...
I would rather see a naturally awesome piece of wood with no carving, than a carved up ugly piece of wood.
As far as making a mistake on it, just accept the fact it will not be perfect & go on. Every one I build I try to make perfect & I have never made one to my perfection. I try to do better on every one but there is always something I find I wished I had done differently, etc. Not that they are mistakes or wrong, just a different way could have made that slight change. Lots of times it is in the finishing. It seems like I work forever scraping & cleaning up & every single time I think I have every possible divot, someplace upon finishing one I find a file mark or a scraper mark or something that I could have put a lil more attention to.... Most of the time it is something nobody else will notice, but I see it because I want it perfect & I am looking for any tiny flaw....
I say Go For It ! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Birddog6
PS: I always suggest using the best wood you can afford... I have never had anyone complain about a Awesome piece of wood.... I have had several say "Dang, only thing I wish I would have done differently is use a better grade of wood"... Get the absolute best you can afford...
I would rather see a naturally awesome piece of wood with no carving, than a carved up ugly piece of wood.
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