Which Round Ball

[Vaino]

For many years I handloaded CFs and observed every factor contributing to the utmost accuracy....and there were many factors. Had a .22/250 19lb bench rifle w/ an 18X Unertl 'scope that was capable of putting 5 shots into a circle that could be subtended w/ a dime.

When first starting to shoot MLers, was surprised and amazed at how easy it was to obtain "head hitting" accuracy on squirrels w/o weighing RBs and powder charges. Of course, I didn't start off that way....relied on my CF procedures, but soon discarded those complications because I found that nothing was gained.

The "modern mindset" can complicate shooting MLers and for that matter, many things connected w/ MLers.....the list is long of what to me, are unnecessary complications of a sport that doesn't require all that.

This has been my experience and if others want to continue w/ complicating their shooting, so be it.....but, for whatever reasons they think they need these unnecessary complications, possibly it's trying to overcome the inaccuracies of sub-standard guns.

I'll just go on enjoying my casual loads that produce excellent accuracy.....Fred

 

[Gene L]

If the balls are heavier, they're bigger around. If they're lighter, they have an air pocket in them.

I weighed about half a box of .36 Hornady balls and most were dead on. Variances were no more than .2 grains for the most part and one was .6 grains light.

I got bored and quit weighing them, plus I'm no target shooter to begin with.

 

[FishDFly]

Has anyone found a brand that is more consistent IRT weights?

What is IRT weights????

 

[Dr5x]

If two balls are the same size and "allegedly" solid lead and one is heavier the other it would indicate to me that something is missing in the light weight ball, or there is an inclusion of some lighter weight material in the light weight ball.
Swaged balls which are squished into shape (swaged) are pretty, shiny, and, I understand increasingly expensive.
In my experience these waged balls tend to run about 22 to 25% light weight. (More than one grain lighter than the heaviest ball in the 100 you weigh out. The more distant from the heaviest weight the more likely to develop into a flyer..
I thought I had gotten a bad batch but numerous people I have been in contact with have reported similar and occasionally worse results.
If you are getting flyers, big obvious out of town flyer, you are probably getting mini flyers that you consider to be just slight deviations from your intended point of aim you are probably (very likely) shooting off balance balls.
There is a happy belief that flyers are the result of angel's sense of humor and must be indulged as there is little you can do about it.
Flyers, the big dramatic show stoppers and the little ones are the result of something you are doing. And I think it is the use of off balance balls.
I have harangued on this subject for some 25 years and to me it is so obvious that I cannot understand why it keeps coming up.

Someone just wrote that torn and off center patches can also cause flyers. This is probably true, but in most cases of cutting your patches at the muzzle will eliminate torn and off center patches. Precut patches, if the right thickness should be OK but again in my experience the precuts carefully centered on the muzzle will for no reason go in off center when short started .
Muzzle loading rifles are subject to the laws of physics and not your machismo. Every thing that happens does so for a reason. If you control all the variable you should get consistent results.
It was never my intention to eliminate flyers but I noticed that during the last 4 or 5 years I was able to shoot, I never had a single flyer.

Any typos in the above were caused by a half blind old Phart typing sing the Columbus method. Be understanding.

Dutch

 

[joe sebia]

IRT =in regards to. Texting shortcut I picked up a bit ago

 

[Vaino]

It's not whether some RBs of a box are heavier or lighter, it's the difference in weight and by how much weight they're different. To be truthful, nothing is perfect...especially production made items. Quibbling over tenths of grs or even 1 or 2 grs in either the difference of weight of RBS or powder charges is to me, not worth the effort.

The item in MLing that interfaces w/ the bbl is the patch and this item is all important asre the accuracy of a load and especially if "flyers" are being shot. Proper mat'l and thickness and to some extent the lube, are to me more important than slight differences in RB weight, dia and powder charges.

I've got very accurate scales which I used for CF reloading, but have never weighed RBs from the same box or compared RB weights w/ subsequent boxes. Until my MLers become inaccurate for some reason, I don't look for non-existant problems.

MLer bench rest shooters are after "perfection", but their results require extreme accuracy in everything involved....but their results aren't needed for every day accurate MLer shooting. Trying to emulate them w/o going through all their procedures won't produce similar results...so why waste one's time?......Fred

 

[ZUG]

:metoo: . I started shooting muzzle loaders using cast balls in the 60's but went to swagged balls when I could find them. I did not like to try to center the sprue on the cast ball and keep it pointing up. I just finished a .50 cal rifle that will shoot 1" to 1-1/2 " groups at 50 yds with the swagged balls - good enough for me :v .

 

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

This was with weighed balls ranging from 277 to 278.8 @ 100 yards for 3 shots.

Heres another 100 yard group but this time, 4 shots with unweighed balls.

Your patch/lube is more important than weighing your balls. And if your balls are that off to make a difference, I suggest you get your technique down when you cast because store bought balls that are +/- 4-6 grains will NOT make a difference.

 

[Cowboy]

It's not whether some RBs of a box are heavier or lighter, it's the difference in weight and by how much weight they're different. To be truthful, nothing is perfect...especially production made items. Quibbling over tenths of grs or even 1 or 2 grs in either the difference of weight of RBS or powder charges is to me, not worth the effort.



MLer bench rest shooters are after "perfection", but their results require extreme accuracy in everything involved....but their results aren't needed for every day accurate MLer shooting. Trying to emulate them w/o going through all their procedures won't produce similar results...so why waste one's time?......Fred

That's what I've been trying to point out Fred. It's not just casting a ball or comparing a swaged ball to one casted. It's about eliminating any inconsistencies when you shoot. If I see something that can be improved upon and I have the means and time on my hands I'll do it.

I know that you have built some of the nicest muzzleloader's that I've layed eyes on. I also know that you take pride in what you do and try to achieve the very best product that you can.

It's no different for those who want to produce the best they can in what ever the task at hand is.

I do not discourage anyone who tries to make something better. There are alot of members who do weigh them and do not think it's a waist of time. I happen to be one of them.

The way I see it is it can't hurt but has the possibility to improve someone's shooting abilities. I see no down side to weighing your balls. It's a pleasure for me to cast and try to make the best ball that I can possibly make. It's something that I enjoy and not a waist of time.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Onojutta]

I agree with flehto. There are many variables in play with black powder shooting from one shot to the next, and those familiar with the concept of "significant digits" will recognize that it doesn't make much sense to obsess over minute differences in one variable if you cannot control all variables to the same degree of precision.

The primitive nature of black powder shooting is the fun of it and what separates it from modern CF shooting, at least IMHO. I doubt whether anyone in the 18th century on the frontier went through the trouble or even had the means to weigh their round balls. The K.I.S.S. principle is very applicable.

 

[Cowboy]

Your patch/lube is more important than weighing your balls.

I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. It's not just all about your patch lube. We all know someone here that we can agree is an expert in this field. He preaches that the very least amount of lube the better, to the point of almost nonexistent.

I also know of someone here who uses simple spit patches and wins competition after competition. Seen it with my own eyes. He has taught me alot and I try to mimic everything he does. Not going to name any one of these gentlemen. Do not want to do that but would only say that all of us would highly agree on their abilities and expertise.

I would lastly say that I had spent alot of money on miracle lubes to include your product.

As for me, I will stick to spit patches. Found it simple and superior to any product that others try to market.

Sure, you can shoot, but would not contribute that to your lubes. Lastly, I don't see how you can state that lube is more important to ball weights? :hmm:

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Vaino]

Excellent shooting and accuracy that proved a point. I've had the same experience, although of a more casual shooting.
Cowboy...
I'm not saying that one shouldn't do whatever one feels they should do.....peace of mind counts for something?.....Fred

 

[Cowboy]

Excellent shooting and accuracy that proved a point. I've had the same experience, although of a more casual shooting.
Cowboy...
I'm not saying that one shouldn't do whatever one feels they should do.....peace of mind counts for something?.....Fred

I agree with everything you just said.

Respectfully, Cowboy :thumbsup:

 

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Your patch/lube is more important than weighing your balls.

I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. It's not just all about your patch lube. We all know someone here that we can agree is an expert in this field. He preaches that the very least amount of lube the better, to the point of almost nonexistent.

I also know of someone here who uses simple spit patches and wins competition after competition. Seen it with my own eyes. He has taught me alot and I try to mimic everything he does. Not going to name any one of these gentlemen. Do not want to do that but would only say that all of us would highly agree on their abilities and expertise.

I would lastly say that I had spent alot of money on miracle lubes to include your product.

As for me, I will stick to spit patches. Found it simple and superior to any product that others try to market.

Sure, you can shoot, but would not contribute that to your lubes. Lastly, I don't see how you can state that lube is more important to ball weights? :hmm:

Respectfully, Cowboy

repeatable consistency is what the main goal is to be honest. You can use all the lube in the world but if you dont know how to apply it, theres no point.

Spit is something I never use, better things available without shoving something into my mouth. Plus its not worth a damn for hunting.

The targets above are my HUNTING loads. I try to shoot for hunting accuracy but one that a target shooter would love to repeat.

If something works for you, use it, just dont try rubbing it off or making it the only way because its not.

Store bought balls are a waste of time to weigh. When I cast, I know how consistent I am and do not even bother with weighing them.

And then agian, it may not even be the balls or patch lubes throwing you off.

Just another example with my brother doing the shooting. Same load that I use in most other cva hawken rifles, same lube applied the same way, didn't even bother to weigh the balls. 100 yards and thats a 3" orange bulls eye to give you some idea on group size.

When its 90* out like it is today, I'll keep the spit in my mouth while the others dry heave on their patches :rotf:

 

[nkbj]

For many years I handloaded CFs and observed every factor contributing to the utmost accuracy....and there were many factors. Had a .22/250 19lb bench rifle w/ an 18X Unertl 'scope that was capable of putting 5 shots into a circle that could be subtended w/ a dime.

When first starting to shoot MLers, was surprised and amazed at how easy it was to obtain "head hitting" accuracy on squirrels w/o weighing RBs and powder charges. Of course, I didn't start off that way....relied on my CF procedures, but soon discarded those complications because I found that nothing was gained.

The "modern mindset" can complicate shooting MLers and for that matter, many things connected w/ MLers.....the list is long of what to me, are unnecessary complications of a sport that doesn't require all that.

This has been my experience and if others want to continue w/ complicating their shooting, so be it.....but, for whatever reasons they think they need these unnecessary complications, possibly it's trying to overcome the inaccuracies of sub-standard guns.

I'll just go on enjoying my casual loads that produce excellent accuracy.....Fred

Been doing my best to complicate muzzleloading for over forty years and caint get past the 1850's yet!

But I aint through trying!
:haha:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I've never weighed a ball in my life for the purposes of sorting them out....And I've almost always made the top rankings of whatever shoot I was competing in...

At best, weighing balls is a "placebo affect", giving the shooter more confidence. Any affect that identical weight balls would have on accuracy would be well below the margin of error for the shooter...
In other words,......The affect is discountable when compared to more influencing factors...

People really need to focus on enjoying muzzleloaders for what they are,
They aren't rail guns.......and trying to make them into one is exactly what is killing this sport....

 

[BrownBear]

I've never weighed a ball in my life for the purposes of sorting them out....And I've almost always made the top rankings of whatever shoot I was competing in...

At best, weighing balls is a "placebo affect", giving the shooter more confidence.

There's another benefit. When you first start out, you're going to have issues with your casting technique. Just the nature of the beast.

Weighing balls help you zero in on the causes and their solutions- things such as voids, out of round, broken rather than cut sprues. Sure you and I know the causes and fixes, and they've become part of our casting routine.

But a beginner? Break out the scales and pay attention.

I confess that I seldom weigh balls at all any more because my casting has become so routine. But there's one exception. I break out the scales when I get a new mold, especially a conical.

 

[Cowboy]

This topic has shifted from ball weights to casting to lubes. A little of everything.

Has been a good lively discussion with opposing points of view. I think that each has made good solid points to ponder.

I think it's healthy to hash out our differences and all learn from each other.

Has been a good lively discussion where everyone's point of view has been valued.

It's been a good day on the forum!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Skychief]

Regarding ball weight and accuracy, I will say that the smaller calibers are fussier than the larger ones.

I don't weigh balls much anymore because it makes so little difference to me with one exception. I always find myself weighing any ball that I'm taking deer hunting. Making sure I've not chosen any lightweights with voids in them. Probably overboard, but, I'll admit to it.

Getting back to swaged balls, and I wish I'd noted it earlier. More important than weight differences, I've found great differences (at times) in ball diameter. I do believe a big difference in diameter will throw a flyer. Also, I've seen times before casting, that a swaged ball couldn't be started for being several thousandths larger than it should have been.

Since casting my own, these problems have all but vanished.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[joe sebia]

Well a lot have weighed in :rotf: but few answered the question which commercial round ball has the most consistency ball to ball. I think that most here agree that cast balls are the most consistent. I can purchase those from TOW. That will be a start.
For those of you that have time and desire to cast I think that collectively you have found your technique consistent enough that weighing is not required. Statistical Process Control at it finest :hatsoff:
I think that we all agree that each rifle is different and once we obtain the accuracy we desire it is relatively easy to shoot well. MLs are that forgiving. But when searching for that magic load we must control as many variable as possible or we are grasping straws. One doesn't know what is causing the inaccuracy to occur.
Those that did not go through the process and found a good Load first try is very very lucky or something else I will keep to myself