Whitworth rifle range report

[GREENSWLDE]

I would have to try it for myself!
Pure lead also fills the bore upon firing.
Unlike a cartridge the bullet in a muzzloader is in effect undersized. Add an alloy so the bullet can not upset to fill the bore is never going to help accuracy.
What we're the original bullets? Pure lead or other?

Hi Nate, With a Ninety Grain Mule kicking you up the backside you are going to expand. Please listen to those in the MLALR club. If you want to go to 600/1200 yards they have all the 1860/1870s Range books and litriture that were published about shoots at Wimbledon ( before tennis) and Other matches. Pity a member had double vision at Creedmoor." Targets look similar at 1000 yds if you do not have your distace Glasses.
If you are going into L/R I am thinning my Gun room. Inviting interest in a Replica Gibbs-Metfoford.. OLD DOG..

 

[Britsmoothy]

Hi Nate, With a Ninety Grain Mule kicking you up the backside you are going to expand. Please listen to those in the MLALR club. If you want to go to 600/1200 yards they have all the 1860/1870s Range books and litriture that were published about shoots at Wimbledon ( before tennis) and Other matches. Pity a member had double vision at Creedmoor." Targets look similar at 1000 yds if you do not have your distace Glasses.
If you are going into L/R I am thinning my Gun room. Inviting interest in a Replica Gibbs-Metfoford.. OLD DOG..

So are you saying they used an alloy in the 1800's?

 

[ResearchPress]

So are you saying they used an alloy in the 1800's?

As per my post yesterday - alloys were used in the 19thC.

Regards,

David

 

[ResearchPress]

...load the powder and wad, then wipe the fouling before loading the bullet. However with this dirty powder it seems I need to clean to the breech each time and then snap a couple of caps.

Powder / wad then clean bore, then seat bullet is widely used for long range muzzle loading. A friend who gets excellent results from his Whitworth cleans to the breech, then caps off before reloading - he doesn't use a wad, but seats a cylindrical bullet with hollow base directly on the powder.

What kind of jag are you using for cleaning? Do you have a hexagonal one so you can clean the bore fully?

David

 

[Britsmoothy]

As per my post yesterday - alloys were used in the 19thC.

Regards,

David

Scouring the Web, me having no experience much unlike yourself, it appears many many Whitworth shooters advocate pure lead bullets.
Just saying.
Regards.
N.

 

[Widows Son]

Powder / wad then clean bore, then seat bullet is widely used for long range muzzle loading. A friend who gets excellent results from his Whitworth cleans to the breech, then caps off before reloading - he doesn't use a wad, but seats a cylindrical bullet with hollow base directly on the powder.

What kind of jag are you using for cleaning? Do you have a hexagonal one so you can clean the bore fully?

David

Hi David,
Yes I have a 50 cal brass jag that I carefully filed into a hexagon.

There is an eBay seller in the UK that makes a LEM mould that looks ideal.

 

[fleener]

I only use regular water for the cleaning patch.

The great thing and the really bad thing is that it seems each rifle likes something different and you just got to play with the variables and see what works for you and your rifle.

Sometimes it can be a huge PIA.

Fleener

 

[DuncNZ]

In my experience a too hard alloyed bullet can fail to set up in the rifling , causing it to tumble . Using a drop tube can help the powder settle into the chamber , it's better than pouring it in . I always cleaned my rifles with a damp patch on the ram rod as I seated the bullet over a lubed felt wad or a lubed beer mat wad ., In a 12 shot 30 minute match one does not have time to do a through clean . I always liked to finish just on time .

 

[ResearchPress]

Scouring the Web, me having no experience much unlike yourself, it appears many many Whitworth shooters advocate pure lead bullets.

Yes, and especially if using cylindrical bullets pure lead is needed to expand to fit the hexagonal bore. However, mechanically fitting bullets of hardened lead are also used by many today, as they were in the 19thC, for long range target shooting.

Whitworth used hardened mechanically fitting bullets to win the competitive gun makers trials in the 1860s for selection by the NRA(UK) of the rifle to be used by finalists in the Queen’s Prize. This put his rifle in the hands of the top riflemen and the widespread reporting of the events at Wimbledon put his rifle before the nation. I doubt he'd have used hardened lead if he didn't think it would gain him an advantage in precision.

David

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yes, and especially if using cylindrical bullets pure lead is needed to expand to fit the hexagonal bore. However, mechanically fitting bullets of hardened lead are also used by many today, as they were in the 19thC, for long range target shooting.

Whitworth used hardened mechanically fitting bullets to win the competitive gun makers trials in the 1860s for selection by the NRA(UK) of the rifle to be used by finalists in the Queen’s Prize. This put his rifle in the hands of the top riflemen and the widespread reporting of the events at Wimbledon put his rifle before the nation. I doubt he'd have used hardened lead if he didn't think it would gain him an advantage in precision.

David

Points taken.
I wonder now if pure lead may cause a little inconsistent slump of the bullets nose??? It being so long.

Interesting

 

[nkbj]

Great thread, thanks to all. I'm in the process of figuring out the design* for a new target rifle and the more info the better.

*Including comparing bullet designs, grains of bullet weight per square inch of area of the bullet base. Sooner or later I'll get into applying powder charges to the numbers crunching.

The results so far have been a bit of an eye opener for me. The Whitworth has enough published data as to make it a historical standard for comparison. So again. my appreciation.

 

[Whitworth]

My slugs weigh 557 grains paper patched and are 1:20 lead/tin.

I was expecting something around 90-95 grains of powder would be sufficient, but 120 grains seems unnecessary and uneconomic. Perhaps I should use a lighter alloy to reduce the bullet weight?

My pure lead Pedersoli bullets come in @ 560 grains, pure linotype @ 465 grains. YMMV

 

[ResearchPress]

I wonder now if pure lead may cause a little inconsistent slump of the bullets nose??? It being so long.

The angle isn't great for viewing this, but of you look at the original bullets in this 19thC range box, the Whitworth cylindrical bullets were quite round nosed. The Metford bullets that used an alloy have a more tapered profile to the nose - so yes, as you note with pure lead and a less rounded profile there was more risk of inconsistent slump.

David

 

[cal.43]

Hi,
does it shoot well now?
Had yesterday to shoot for a match at 100m prone with sling, unfortunately I couldn´t get Swiss powder and had to use Wano PPP that´s not the perfect stuff.
I´m not satisfied with the result.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I like it, slight zero chang they'd all be in the black.

 

[nkbj]

Yes, and especially if using cylindrical bullets pure lead is needed to expand to fit the hexagonal bore. However, mechanically fitting bullets of hardened lead are also used by many today, as they were in the 19thC, for long range target shooting.

Whitworth used hardened mechanically fitting bullets to win the competitive gun makers trials in the 1860s for selection by the NRA(UK) of the rifle to be used by finalists in the Queen’s Prize. This put his rifle in the hands of the top riflemen and the widespread reporting of the events at Wimbledon put his rifle before the nation. I doubt he'd have used hardened lead if he didn't think it would gain him an advantage in precision.

David

I have one .401 bore rifle set up for mechanically fitted bullets.
It's such an amazing pain in the hind quarters to make bullets for it as to be... disheartening.
Paper patching .392 diameter smooth sided bullets for it is actually easier.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Redused recoil with L/R rifles..Back in the 1970's several older MLA(GB) members were trying to reduse the felt recoil from heavy L/R loads. B & C came up with a mould that was totally different in concept..
Rather than a flat or hollow base there was a reduced dia. stub at the base. With a thick hard card this stub was forced into the base expanding to the rifleing. The nose was similar to modern C/F conform. I altered a mould to this form at 455grns with 2 turns of .002" paper in my .461" Eichelburger Metford tube out to 400 yrds with good results (that was the limit of my range at the time) it hurt far less on old shoulders with only 70grns of Swiss 4. Not quite PC but worth reserecting for an experiment.. OLD DOG..Will some bobby tell me how to post photo's from Wds10. I'm told I have the wrong browser.. What's a Browser. It used to be someone having a Nap under a tree on a warm afternoon while my plow horses had a rest and some Oats if the milk maid came by.. Very OLD DOG..

 

[Bad Karma]

I have one .401 bore rifle set up for mechanically fitted bullets.
It's such an amazing pain in the hind quarters to make bullets for it as to be... disheartening.
Paper patching .392 diameter smooth sided bullets for it is actually easier.

I’m using bullets up to 450 grains in my .40. Sized .401 and grease grooves lubed with Lewis’ special SPG/HP concoction. Results have been very good thus far.

 

[nkbj]

Wow. What kind of rifle? How thick at the breach?

 

[Bad Karma]

Wow. What kind of rifle? How thick at the breach?

Apologies for missing your post. I have three .40’s One used a 26” x 1” Renegade barrel, one using a 1” high plains sporter tube and one began life as a 15/16” Hawken barrel. The last is mounted in a glass bedded Renegade stock or sometimes in a White Mountain carbine stock. The biggest pain is all the casting if grease grooved, or paper patching bullets sourced from BACO.