Whitworth rifle range report

[Dave Fox]

Checked Amazon. A number of choices for onion skin paper.

 

[fleener]

Buffalo arms sells a paper. I got mine of flea bay

I tried quite a few different papers when I first got started. Most were terrible.

Fleener

 

[Crow-Feather]

And remember that a first shot on a clean barrel does not in a group go.

 

[TFoley]

Modesty is a noble virtue. I’m in Australia. We exchanged the Australian pound for the Australian dollar back in the 1960s.

So, does the direction that a paper patch is rolled really matter? I ask because in a muzzleloader the patched bullet is maneouvered against the rifling twist when loading and then with the twist when fired.

Ah, I should have twigged with the metrics - mind you, we use metrics in Canada - mostly. Sometimes. My advice it to watch a few Youtube movies in which the producer is actually doing it. I'll be joining you in pp-ing soon. Meanwhile I have a few dozen grease-grooved 535gr bullets to shoot.

 

[flintsteel]

Don’t know if this helps but in my .451 PH Volunteer with Henry rifling I use a 492 gr slug, mold made by Ron Long of Denver a long time ago. I cast pure lead and grease the grooves with a mixture of beeswax and patch lube. .125 hard card underneath and 100 grains Goex FFg. Gun is deadly accurate and slugs recovered from dead elk show full obturation.

 

[jimairwin]

T

Thank you for your supportive words. I’m actually using cast hex bullets from a KAL mould and I have no way to size them. They are very consistent diameter thankfully

You've not mentioned much about your bullets & the alloy you're using. Cast pure lead bullets up to 40:1 lead/tin alloy are "sized" as soon as the powder ignites! The results you show are way less than should be expected. The cheap paper you have tried will NOT hold up to firing. What you've done so far has just discouraged you. But has also shown you that getting such a gun to perform is not a trivial exercise.
All the PH Whitworth shooters I've known use no paper patch, counting instead on cleaning between shots and proper lubricant to do the job. MANY choose to use cylindrical bullets with typical lube grooves and rely on bullet upset to produce results.

 

[ResearchPress]

The usual load for a Whitworth rifle is between 80 - 90gr, BTW. David Minshall, a man of vast experience in these matters, would tell you that long-range shooting is accomplished with a Whitworth uses around 100gr.

Whitworth's recommendation, and the most often cited 19thC charge I have seen, was 85 grains of sporting powder (Curtis & Harvey No. 5 powder) with a 530 grain bullet. This with a match rifle of 10lb. For the lighter military rifle Whitworth recommended a 480 grain bullet with 75 grains of powder.

I have no significant experience shooting Whitworth at long range, but 100 grains seems high. My usual long range charge in .45 match rifles is 90 grains of Swiss No. 3 (FFg) out to 1000 yards. I have increased this to 95 grains for 1100/1200 yards (and won competition). This is with Metford rifling.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

Brent might see this thread and offer his opinion on PP. I learned what I know from him. Your paper is not sheading and coming out like confetti.

I'm not sure that with a mechanically fitting bullet in a hexagonal bore that the paper would necessarily come out like confetti? Unlike shallower rifling and cylindrical bullets, there's no rifling edges to shear the paper.

David

 

[BP Addict]

70gr of what size? I am using 3f powder because it’s what I have. I found a chart on some old cast boolets forum that stated 25% less fffg produces close to 2f ffg velocities and breech pressure.


GOEX FFg to FFFg at the 56% proposed rule of thought
50 gr FFg = 28 gr FFFg
60 gr FFg = 34 gr FFFg
70 gr FFg = 39 gr FFFg
80 gr FFg = 45 gr FFFg
90 gr FFg = 50 gr FFFg
100 gr FFg = 56 gr FFFg
110 gr FFg = 62 gr FFFg
125 gr FFg = 70 gr FFFg
GOEX FFg to FFFg at the 75% proposed rule of thought
50 gr FFg = 38 gr FFFg
60 gr FFg = 45 gr FFFg
70 gr FFg = 53 gr FFFg
80 gr FFg = 60 gr FFFg
90 gr FFg = 68 gr FFFg
100 gr FFg = 75 gr FFFg
110 gr FFg = 83 gr FFFg
125 gr FFg = 94 gr FFFg
GOEX FFFg to FFg
30 gr FFFg = 54 gr FFg (at 56%), 40 gr FFg (at 75%)
40 gr FFFg = 71 gr FFg (56%), 53 gr FFg (75%)
50 gr FFFg = 89 gr FFg (56%), 67 gr FFg (75%)
60 gr FFFg = 107 gr FFg (56%), 80 gr FFg (75%)
70 gr FFFg = 125 gr FFg (56%), 93 gr FFg (75%)
80 gr FFFg = 143 gr FFg (56%), 107 gr FFg (75%)
90 gr FFFg = 161 gr FFg (56%), 120 gr FFg (75%)
100 gr FFFg = 179 gr FFg (56%), 133 gr FFg (75%)
110 gr FFFg = 196 gr FFg (56%), 147 gr FFg (75%)

WOW! That's quite a variance! I did some measuring and then weighed them on a Digital Scale measuring in Grains. I only found a slight difference.

 

[BP Addict]

And remember that a first shot on a clean barrel does not in a group go.

True! The first shot is usually for "Fouling" the barrel.

 

[Kno-ie]

I would tend to disagree with some of my fellow shooter in regards to the need for the paper to turn to confetti out of the Whitworth. It will not preform the same as a rifle with multiple lands and groves. It will and should strip off the bullet with in feet of the muzzle, but will do so in what I refer to as chunks.

During a shooters development class held at Friendship IN last October during a stop in firing and target check. I notice several people were walking behind me picking up my striped paper. Being I was the only one shooting a Whitworth I was asked about the lack of confetti but chucks of paper. My spotter/couch who had experience with Whitworth rifle spoke up and explained that it was a Whitworth I was shooting and it will not turn the paper into the normal since of the word, confetti. It was noted at the time my paper was stripping off the bullet about 3 feet from the muzzle.
It's been 10 months and the rifle has stripped paper off the same way pretty much the same as the first time, in chunks. 3-4 chunks at a time. I do use a 540grn cylinder paper patched bullet and I'm currently testing a 550grn. with the same results.
I do shoot a Volunteer and a Mortimer 451 rifle and those rifle do turn the paper into confetti.
Kno-ie

 

[BP Addict]

I'm almost done with "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned H. Roberts. It's mainly about Long Range Shooting, especial with heavy conical bullets.

I'm not sure whether they've changed powder granulations in the last 150 years but they were using 1F in Calibers 50 and up; 2F in all calibers under. The time references were 1840 to 1940.

He also referred to a "Damp" burning powder which I have never heard of. He stated it kept the fouling soft and made it easier to swab between shots. He often referenced Curtis & Harvey No. 6.

I took my Volunteer rifle out to the range using Goex 3F powder and a lubed 300 grain cast Mine' Balls (that's all they had at the ML shop). I started with 60 grains and it hit incredibly high. Dropped it down to 40 grains with no difference. Distances were 25 and 50 yards. I lowered the point of aim (bottom of the Target Board) so that it would hit somewhere near the Bullseye.

I was just out trying to get a feel for the gun. I'll order the correct components when I can. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about my sights, yet.

 

[Widows Son]

You've not mentioned much about your bullets & the alloy you're using

This is information that I can’t provide (but I should know). I get my lead from the scrap metal merchant and just pic out the softest most malleable lead I can find. It’s mostly old roof flashing and down pipes. Then I flux it well.

I should find a source of certified pure lead

 

[toot]

Don’t have a Whitworth, but shoot paperpatched out of a faster twist GM barrel. Found baking parchment paper to be ok, but things really came around when I started using 100% cotton 9lb onion skin for wrapping sized bullets. They load with little more than pressure from the weight of the ramrod. Not much to recover as far a paperpatch. It tends to shred into confetti as it exits the bore. I use a slightly oversized hard felt wad between the powder and bullet. View attachment 89155

question, how do you know how many wraps / turns of paper to apply, with out getting too much wrap on the bullet, and it will not load? and what makes it adhere to the bullet with out unraveling ?toot.

 

[Widows Son]

question, how do you know how many wraps / turns of paper to apply, with out getting too much wrap on the bullet, and it will not load? and what makes it adhere to the bullet with out unraveling ?toot.

It’s customary to wrap twice around the bullet. My bullet mould came with a template for tracing out patches. I moisten the paper and roll it around the bullet, then fold it on itself on the base of the bullet. When the paper dries it’s tight.

 

[fleener]

Kno-ie and Dave

The paper not sheading is very likely. I have zero experience with shooting a rifle with this type of rifling. Was just basing it off my experience with other rifles and most likely I am wrong.


Fleener

 

[Britsmoothy]

question, how do you know how many wraps / turns of paper to apply, with out getting too much wrap on the bullet, and it will not load? and what makes it adhere to the bullet with out unraveling ?toot.

Measure a completed one buddy.

 

[TFoley]

I took my Volunteer rifle out to the range using Goex 3F powder and a lubed 300 grain cast Mine' Balls (that's all they had at the ML shop). I started with 60 grains and it hit incredibly high. Dropped it down to 40 grains with no difference. Distances were 25 and 50 yards.

I very much appreciate a look at your Volunteer rifle, please. I'm not surprised that your shots went high. You are using the general 60g load, but of finer grade than usual in a rifle designed to start shooting at 300 yards.

 

[TFoley]

Measure a completed one buddy.

Step #1. Obtain a paper-patched bullet.

Step #2. Carefully unravel it.

Step #3. Measure the paper.

This is a bullet intended for a Metford-rifled barrel, added to my little collection about thirty years ago. Notice the fineness of the paper, and the manner of finishing off at the base.

This little drawing is from the FB Whitworth pages - well-worth joining, IMO, as there is a wealth of knowledge and lore therein.

 

[toot]

thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question, toot.