Why do you use real BP?

[jethro224]

I'm not trying to stir things up, just asking for reasons.
I had a buddy of mine look up some pistol load ballistics for me. What he came up with was that a 40 grain load of Elephant 3F under a .50 cal 245gr Ball-et would make 427 ft/lb of muzzle energy at 886fps. The same load using Pyrodex P instead made 507 ft/lb at 965fps.
My friend wanted me to ask "If Pyrodex gives us more velocity and energy, why do we use BP?"
Any reasons other than PC-ness, smells better, just because, it wuz good enuff fer Pappy, etc.?
I figure with all the years of experience available here, there should be some good insights and advice.
Thanks for your opinions.
Jethro

 

[Hawkeye]

Please do not take this as an insult or in a negative light but if your friend needs to ask that question he will not understand the answer. Using black powder is a tangiable link to the past and is very special for that, at least to me. If it was just about velocity and enegery I would be using smokeless in a new SSM round.

 

[Swampman]

It's less corrosive. The fouling says softer. It's the only thing that works in pre-1840 guns.

I don't consider percussion guns to have been available in sufficent numbers to be worth consideration for pre-1840 events.

 

:thumbsup: and it dont work worth Poo in my 50cal fl pistol :blah:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Speaking only for myself...
It cleans up easier, works better in my flintlock and it's authentic. Since I don't care about "ballistics", I have no interest in a modern product that may perform better. The deer have no idea what foot-pounds or velocity are. :grin:

 

[roundball]

I used Pyrodex for years in caplocks and it did very well in spite of it's rare/occasional ignition quirks.

But when I switched to Flintlocks and had to switch to real black powder, I found Goex to be so fast, reliable, clean, and accurate that I rezeroed all my caplocks with it too.

And beyond real BP's 100% reliability & performance characteristics, there's something special, something satisfying about using real black powder like our ancestors did.

Real BP is not carried in as many local establishments as Pyrodex, but it's simple to get just by ordering it from Goex distributors, and it's almost half the price of Pyrodex.
:thumbsup:

 

[Old40Rod]

BP = BOOM! Pyro = pfftkrack

I like BOOM!

:blah:

 

[rabjr]

There is no substitute for black powder....

 

Said a mouthful there, swamprat. The real stuff is the only way to go BOOM!!! :thumbsup: It's just all the reasons before mentioned. The history and the satisfaction of knowing your shooting the same stuff GG grandpa shot to make meat with. Same type of rifles and powder and the shiny round lead balls.
Don :winking:

 

[FV Rago]

I'm just a snob, if it's not black powder then it does not go in my guns.

My neighbor and I went to the range awhile back, he with his civil war pea shooter and me with my cut down GPR. I'm shooting just fine, 70grns of 3F while his civil war gun shooting these bullet thingys, with elephant stuf, pyrodex, and another substance that slips my mind right now. He loads, puts on a primer, pulls the trigger and kerplunck.

He is shooting 60 grns of all these diff. substances with no luck. So I told him he needed to try some of this here 3F, reluctantly he tried it. He loaded his gun with 50grns of 3F, prior to priming I stepped back and told him "now this is a diff. animal, be prepared".

Caught him a little off gaurd. No kerplunck but rather a very loud bang.

I think he shoots black powder now.

Frank

 

[Twisted_1in66]

The main reason I use "real" black powder is because it consistently ignites with a flintlock while the substitutes don't. I've used Pyrodex and Triple 7 also, and they just don't reliably ignite in the pan. When Pyrodex does ignite, it tends to fuse in the pan instead of igniting all at once. That's what the post that said " BP = BOOM! Pyro = pfftkrack" means.

If you do a search for it, you'll find that someone here on the forum actually looked up (or worked up) the ignition temperatures for Pyrodex, Triple 7 and Black Powder about 4 or 5 months ago.

Plus, there's something about the authenticity of using the same stuff in our rifles and smoothbores that our forefathers did when they were building this country.

Also, you'd get more realistic results for black powder if you used Goex or Swiss. Swiss is generally considered the best, although more expensive than Goex. Most folks use Goex. Elephant has a bad reputation for fouling, to the point that it's only used as a last resort. One of the forum members did a test with the three of them for fps and ft/lbs. of energy and elephant was the worst performer of the bunch.

Hope this helps.
-----------------------------------------
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[CrackStock]

I started with Pyrodex and got poor accuracy and moved to Goex.

Now I have no interest in anything but real black powder.

CS

 

[noahmercy]

#1 reason is the horrible corrosiveness of Pyrodex. #2 is the fact that more than a few guns are not reliable with Pyrodex. #3 is the lack of traditionality...why shoot an antique-style firearm with a modern propellent? #4 is that the extra few fps doesn't make a dang bit of difference with the large traditional lead projectiles we use. No animal was ever killed by a foot-pound...it's the ball or bullet that does it. (And if you get the right ball and patch combo and you might be surprised at how close the velocities can be between BP and Pyro.)

:thumbsup:

 

[jethro224]

Thanks for the fast responses! :thumbsup: Keep 'em comin' if you have more reasons.

The whole reason I had my buddy looking it up was because of the Illinois hunting regs. :youcrazy:
I want to try and take a deer with a traditional style muzzleloading pistol. The regs say that you have to have 500 ft/lbs muzzle energy to be legal. Gotta stay legal.
I will keep all shots inside 25 yards. Broadside. I bowhunt with a recurve so I'm used to that anyway. Shouldn't be a problem.
I use Goex but have some Pyrodex P. Might have to try it and see how it works.? Don't plan to make a habit of it tho.
My buddy has a bunch of Elephant BP. He got a case a while back.

 

The other problem you had with the Ballistics is that you were using Pachy Poo Powder. It barely qualifies as black powder. Lower pressures, and performance than GOEX or Swiss. Bill

 

[roundball]

My buddy has a bunch of Elephant BP. He got a case a while back.

FWIW, his particular "lot" of Elephant may be OK, but from personal experience I can tell you that Elephant had some serious quality controlo issues from one lot to another.

Example, I had 5 cans from one lot, and literally couldn't use it satisfactorily even in a caplock...poured it all out in 10 foot long lines on the ground and set fire to it.

So if your plan is to use some of his, don't wait until the last minute to experiment with it in case it's not good...you'll need time to order some Goex or something, then get back to the range and rezero your rifle, etc.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I just always have and see no reason to switch. I think I pre-date Pyrodex, but I'm not sure.

For flintlocks, there is no other choice. For percussions, no better choice.

 

[Zonie]

Others have mentioned the ease with which black powder ignites and many have mentioned that the Pyrodex doesn't work well in Flintlocks.
The reason is the black powder ignites at a temperature about 300 degrees F lower than the Pyrodex does.

While this is critical to Flintlock Shooters, it is also very important to the Caplock Shooters.

Many Caplock shooters have noticed a delay in ignition when using Pyrodex and by merely changing over to Black Powder the delays vanish.
This allows better, more accurate shooting.
I have also seen studies where the Standard Deviation with good Black Powder (Goex & Swiss) is lower than either the Pyrodex P or Pyrodex RS. The upshot of this is the velocity is more uniform with real Black Powder which in turn gives better accuracy.

Personally, I can say I often shoot Pyrodex in my Caplocks when I'm just pokeing holes in paper for the fun of it.
The reason is the Pyrodex is available at almost every Tom, **** and Harry gunshop while real Black Powder is hard to come by here in the Phoenix area. I am not interested in higher velocitys and increased Foot Pounds of energy when I'm shooting my muzzleloaders.

If I want to play the flat shooting velocity game (and occasionally I do) I get out my .223 or my .25-06 where the little slug is moving above 3000 FPS.

About this increased velocity and energy with Pyrodex: Lymans Black Powder Handbook has loads for both Black Powder and Pyrodex and gives the following information about Goex FFg vs Pyrodex RS:
for a .45 cal roundball in a 28 inch barrel with a 80 grain load, the RS is 122 fps faster.

For a .50 cal roundball in a 32 inch barrel with a 100 grain load the Goex FFg is 3 FPS faster.

For a .54 cal roundball in a 28 inch barrel with a 110 grain load, the RS is 124 FPS faster.

AS you are finding, the small gain in performance is not worth the troubles and the lack of history for most Traditional Muzzleloader shooters.

 

[sidelock]

If you would be happy with lesser performance by all means try the subs., but every one here has told it like it is---- REAL BP is the only answer to reliability and accuracy.(IMHO) :youcrazy:

 

[musketman]

Why do you use real BP?

In my opinion:

Most of muzzleloading is about tradition, it would only seem right to use a traditional propellant, plus guns like flintlocks respond better to real black powder than they do to the modern alternates...

Granted, some people don't have much of a choise when local shops stop carring black powder and they can't afford to buy mail order bulk amounts...