Why does smokeless powder peel open a muzzleloader like a banana?

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Your top chart is misleading stalker because with the BP loads it is using a 500 gr bullet where the smokeless is using a 410 gr bullet. That would account for the higher pressures of the BP.
The bottom chart is for a shotgun and although a rifle's pressure curve may be similar. I'd like to see oranges to oranges.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/02/black-vs-smokeless-powder/

Over-Simplified Black Powder VS Smokeless Powder Conclusions:​

  • Black Powder typically burns (deflagrates) rather than detonates like Smokeless Powder
  • Smokeless Powder reacts at much higher pressures than Black Powder
  • Black Powder byproducts attract water and promote corrosion whereas Smokeless Powder usually includes additives to inhibit corrosion.
  • Black Powder is actually a powder whereas Smokeless Powder is normally pelletized extrusions.
  • The solid wastes from Black Powder makes the smoke.
  • Smokeless Powder isn’t completely smokeless.
  • Black Powder and Smokeless Powder are NOT interchangeable.
When it burns under pressure, as in a cartridge fired in a gun, smokeless powder produces very little smoke, a small glow and leaves very little or no residue. The burning rate of smokeless powder increases with increased pressure.

Smokeless powder does not detonate like high explosives as it has a controlled rate of burn and differs considerably in its burning characteristics from common “black powder.” Black powder burns at essentially the same rate out in the open (unconfined) as when in a gun.

The basis of the term smokeless is that the combustion products are mainly gaseous, compared to around 55% solid products (mostly potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, and potassium sulfide) for black powder.[1] Despite its name, smokeless powder is not completely free of smoke;
 
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Back in the 1970's , custom m/l gunbarrels were being manufactured from L1011 or another free machining steel. This steel is LEAD bearing steel , that's what the " L " stands for in the numeric formula. This steel can only be expected to stand black powder pressure dynamics. Modern high power cartridge barrel is 4140. No " L " for lead. Made for modern rifle powder.
 
Inmaterial to me cuz I ain't gonna ever use SP! What I get a 'kick' out of are the guys on these hunting shows on TV using their ML (modern inlines) and making kills at 300 plus yards! They all think they're DB!!
 
An interesting thread!

Strangely enough, a major problem with BP in the past was trying to slow it down for use in cannon (ML!). If you look at old photos of cannon from the 1860s you will see they had short barrels and very thick breeches. This was because the powder charge burned very quickly and produced a high pressure peak almost before the projectile had started to move. Given the relativly weak state of the cast and wrought metals available at the time, they had to add thickness to give the strenght. There were various attempts to slow down the burn rate of the powder by making very coarse "pebble" powder or compressing the powder into prism blocks to reduce the burning surface. The problem with BP is however that it is basically made from compressed dust and cannot hold together that long. As soon as the grains start to break up, the burn rate climbs exponentially. The problem with this is that the energy of a charge depends on pressure over time; you either get high pressure over a short time or lower pressure for a longer time. If you can persuade your propellent to burn more gradually, you can release more energy at a lower pressure.

The next thing they tried was to slow the burn rate by using less flammable components. By using charred straw instead of charcoal the powder took longer to complete the burn. This was called cocoa powder and was used in large cannon at the end of the BP period. It was however very dirty. It did however allow the pressure peak to be flattened out and extended the burn time allowing more energy to transfer to the projectile. Steel wire was often wound round the first quarter of the barrel to help improve the pressure resistence without having to use very thick breech rings..
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As nitro propellent is a chemical solid rather than a compressed block, it is much more robust in resisting the pressures inside a breech, and the burning process can be better controlled. The secret of making smokeless propellent was to find a way of forming the nitrated cellulose into a solid mass. Early attempts to make a propellent from nitro cotton met with disaster as the surface area was too great and the burn rate could reach supersonic velocities. At this speed, the reaction changes from a "burn" to a shockwave induced "detonation" and the energy generation rate climbs exponentially. Black powder cannot detonate as the burn rate can never reach supersonic velocities in the medium, however almost all smokeless propellents can be made to detonate given the correct "encouragement". UK used only a very small range of double base (NG/NC) Cordite propellent in almost everything from small arms to Ship cannon by simply changing the grain size and surface area. The US has tended to stick to NC powder for cannon even up to the present day for some reason.

"Duplex Loads" are nothing new in gunnery. Almost all cannon rounds are duplex and up until very recently used a BP filled primer to ignite the nitro propellent. These charges are however very carefully designed to achieve a desired and predictable effect, often at very great cost in firing trials. There seems little practical benefit and significant risk in using "Reverse Duplex" in small arms where you are using smokeless to ignite BP, and not the other way around!

Always remember that there are a number of "Dragons" hiding in the back of the propellent cave...

Too much space in a BP charge can lead to shock waves travelling up and down the chamber causing pressure peaks and creating rings when the shock waves meet. There was a very nice demonstration of this by a researcher in the 60s who did a number of firing trials using copper pipe as a barrel subsitute. It was quite easy to produce predictable pressure rings in the barrel by leaving gaps. I need to emphasise that these trials were all fired remotely under controlled conditions, and is definately not for repetition in the back yard!​
Re-enactors need to be careful not to coat the bore with a layer of powder when loose loading blank charges as this can create a "quick match" effect as a flame front travels up the bore. They report this as "detonation" - it isn't, but it can lead to pressure peaks. Blanks need to be properly loaded into the breech with some form of light wad to keep the powder in place..​
I will not stray too far into the smokeless zone, but there is a known problem of using light charges of slow powder which will detonate in some circumstances.​

Please try not to poke the dragons!
Just finished reading this old, but very interesting thread in its entirety. I was drawn to the comment about reenactors needing to be careful when loading blanks to avoid pressure problems from having a layer of powder in the barrel. I am not a Reenactor, but have friends who are. They are no longer allowed to use, or even draw their ramrods due to some unfortunate incidents of folks accidentally firing ramrods down range. When they tear a blank paper cartridge, the powder is just poured down the barrel and the paper discarded. Is this a dangerous practice? I am not a physicist, but as there is no barrier ie bullet, in front of the powder to restrict the escape of gases out the muzzle, how can this lead to a high pressure situation?
I am not saying the information is incorrect, just trying to understand the science behind it.
 
Your top chart is misleading stalker because with the BP loads it is using a 500 gr bullet where the smokeless is using a 410 gr bullet. That would account for the higher pressures of the BP.
The bottom chart is for a shotgun and although a rifle's pressure curve may be similar. I'd like to see oranges to oranges.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/11/02/black-vs-smokeless-powder/

Over-Simplified Black Powder VS Smokeless Powder Conclusions:​

  • Black Powder typically burns (deflagrates) rather than detonates like Smokeless Powder
  • Smokeless Powder reacts at much higher pressures than Black Powder
  • Black Powder byproducts attract water and promote corrosion whereas Smokeless Powder usually includes additives to inhibit corrosion.
  • Black Powder is actually a powder whereas Smokeless Powder is normally pelletized extrusions.
  • The solid wastes from Black Powder makes the smoke.
  • Smokeless Powder isn’t completely smokeless.
  • Black Powder and Smokeless Powder are NOT interchangeable.
please go back and reread the charts.
 
I crossed paths with a video on this forum, can’t remember where, that demonstrated what happens with smokeless powder. Scary! It blew up every ML it was loaded in! I thought it was a bit of an over charge at 150 grains, but with BP I think the barrels would have survived? Is the issue the metal ML’s are made of? Barrel Wall thickness? How can a cheap black gun pop off smokeless forever and an expensive BP barrel becomes a cautionary tale? I don’t want to shoot the stuff, just curious.

Smokeless powder has a different pressure curve, and the breech structure and steel used in manufacturing needs to withstand those yields.
 
Just finished reading this old, but very interesting thread in its entirety. I was drawn to the comment about reenactors needing to be careful when loading blanks to avoid pressure problems from having a layer of powder in the barrel. I am not a Reenactor, but have friends who are. They are no longer allowed to use, or even draw their ramrods due to some unfortunate incidents of folks accidentally firing ramrods down range. When they tear a blank paper cartridge, the powder is just poured down the barrel and the paper discarded. Is this a dangerous practice? I am not a physicist, but as there is no barrier ie bullet, in front of the powder to restrict the escape of gases out the muzzle, how can this lead to a high pressure situation?
I am not saying the information is incorrect, just trying to understand the science behind it.
The dynamics of propellent burns are interesting. There are two distinct phases.. I will call them "flash through" and "grain burn".

Flash through is the progress of the ignition flame through the mass of the propellent grains. Once the flash has passed through the grains, igniting the surface of of them, a second phase of the burn occurs, this time at right angles to the grain surface, consuming the grain layer by layer until it is all consumed.

Comparing black powder(BP) and nitro, the speed of flash through in black powder is significantly faster than nitro. This is due to the low ignition temperature and dusty nature of BP which encourages the production of sparks and burning fragments. There is a bit of a trade off between flash through and grain burn depending on the grain size and density of the BP. Fine powder has a greater surface area but has fewer spaces than packed large grain in a compressed charge.

To get the maximum flash through rate you need a combination of fine powder and a large exposed area. This is used in pyrotechnic "quick match" which consists of a string coated with fine powder enclosed in a loosely fitting paper tube. The burn rate is almost instantaneous and was used to link charges before detonating cord was invented.

You can get a similar effect by coating the inside of a gun barrel with a layer of fine powder. I was not aware that reenactors had stopped using rammers. I would not approve of this, particularly if the surface of the barrel was sticky with oil etc. I would think that a loose charge should only ever be used with a very clean, dry barrel..

If you don't believe me, try coating the inside of a paper straw with fine black powder...

ignite very carefully, and preferably remotely...!
 
The dynamics of propellent burns are interesting. There are two distinct phases.. I will call them "flash through" and "grain burn".

Flash through is the progress of the ignition flame through the mass of the propellent grains. Once the flash has passed through the grains, igniting the surface of of them, a second phase of the burn occurs, this time at right angles to the grain surface, consuming the grain layer by layer until it is all consumed.

Comparing black powder(BP) and nitro, the speed of flash through in black powder is significantly faster than nitro. This is due to the low ignition temperature and dusty nature of BP which encourages the production of sparks and burning fragments. There is a bit of a trade off between flash through and grain burn depending on the grain size and density of the BP. Fine powder has a greater surface area but has fewer spaces than packed large grain in a compressed charge.

To get the maximum flash through rate you need a combination of fine powder and a large exposed area. This is used in pyrotechnic "quick match" which consists of a string coated with fine powder enclosed in a loosely fitting paper tube. The burn rate is almost instantaneous and was used to link charges before detonating cord was invented.

You can get a similar effect by coating the inside of a gun barrel with a layer of fine powder. I was not aware that reenactors had stopped using rammers. I would not approve of this, particularly if the surface of the barrel was sticky with oil etc. I would think that a loose charge should only ever be used with a very clean, dry barrel..

If you don't believe me, try coating the inside of a paper straw with fine black powder...

ignite very carefully, and preferably remotely...!
I want to be clear, I was not doubting you, just didn’t understand the dynamics involved. I appreciate your detailed explanation. Reenactors have been banned from using ramrods for several years now, surprisingly I am not aware of any unfortunate incidents.

I am not a Reenactor, but I do firing demonstrations for school kids occasionally, but I ram the paper from the blank charge on the powder before firing.
 
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