Why is the Gibbs in .451 and .40?

[Jarikeen]

Does anyone know why the Pedersoli Gibbs comes in a .451 and a .40 Cal?

Is the .451 mostly for long range work and the .40 for the 50 and 100 yard events, or are both used for short and long range?

 

[Vbull]

Jarikeen,
As far as I know, the .451 has a fast twist for shooting conicals. It is generaly used for long range. The 40 cals were originaly made with a slower twist and used for short range. Recently, I saw where the 40 cals now come with a fast twist version. (1:16" I think) Some folks will be trying them out at long range (out to 1000 yards) Time will tell if the 40's will work as well as the .451. FM

 

[arquebus]

Both the .40 & .451 have twist rates suitable for 'long-range', though the .451 should surpass the .40 at ranges past 600m I should think. Also the .40, I feel, was brought out primarily for MLAIC (International Muzzleoading) competition in the 'Whitworth' match which is for any percussion rifle, shot prone with sling at 100m. While the .451 would also be fine for that match the .40 should be much more comfortable, recoil-wise, as they are required to fire 13 shots in 30 minutes & any advantage is a consideration.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use a 250 grain, .40 caliber bullet in that 1:16" ROT, and you have an accurate round out to 500-600 meters. The recoil is noticeably lighter, than in shooting the .451. I would think that the .45 will have the edge for the longer range matches, from 600 m. to 1000 m., but you probably will be shooting 530 grain bullets or even heavier bullets to win those matches. OUCH for your shoulder shooting that stuff.

 

[Christiaan]

Very interesting question. I'm not a long range shooter but are on my way to Cape Town to attend the 6th MLAIC World Championship in South Africa. Drove about 1000km today and will drive about 500km tomorrow to attend the whole week. I will ask some of those long range shooters.

 

[Jarikeen]

That would be appreciated.
Cheers

 

[faw3]

I dont think anyone did tell you why 451 and 40, or I missed it. Its history! All those orgs are that size (the 40 Im not sure about) the 451 was the 357 of the rifle world then till the Sharps Rems rolling-blocks ect 458s. Thats the easy answer I think your looking for. Fred :hatsoff: ( looking at Muzz Blast and new Gibbs, one guy shot 1.6 for 5 shots at 200 yrds out of the box and never shot one before this with the sights it came with, some scoped rifles will have hell with that one. :shocked2

 

[Christiaan]

I asked Uli Eigerberger (the barrel maker) here at the World Shoot and he said the .40 is for distances up to 600m and for good weather conditions. Not like they have here in Cape Town with bad windy conditions. The .451 is for distances up to 900m and are much better for the windy conditions. But the recoil on the .451 with a 600gr paper patched bullet can hurt a bit so they wear PAST shoulder pads and thick jackets.

A shot from Switzerland (Rouss) freaked out on the first event today. It was the 300m and he shot a 48 out of 50 with three X's. It is a new World Record. What makes it even more outstanding was that the wind was terrible and everyone had to compensate for the wind. Great to start an event with a World record. :thumbsup:

 

[faw3]

What did he use to set the record with ?? Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Jarikeen]

Many thanks to all.

 

[le piaf]

Hello
In Europe for MLAIC competition the .40 is the new fashion caliber , lot of competitors use Underhammer rifles in .40 , and now the Gibbs.
It is a very accurate caliber (chosed by Swiss army more a century ago !).
As said upper .40 need lower loads and is very very nice to fire .......but I keep my .451 :wink: ( to old to change my Volunteers for a .40 and up to 600m I am not sure that .40 is better)

 

[ResearchPress]

The first Pedersoli Gibbs that came on the market was I think the .40 cal (1:24 twist). As has already been explained this is suitable for the 100m MLAIC international style competitions.

The .45 cal (1:18 twist) Gibbs was introduced second in response to the long range market. It is a heavier rifle than was permitted under 19th century long range shooting rules, weighing in at a little over 12lbs compared to originals at 10lbs.

Shooters with .40 cal (and smaller) 'fast twist' black powder cartridge rifles have reportedly been getting good results at long range. I guess Pedersoli saw a market here so have in the past few months introduced a .40 cal (1:16 twist) Gibbs. This calibre rifle did not feature in the original British match rifles of the 19th century. I've not heard any reports yet as to how the rifle performs at long range.

David

 

[schuetzen32]

In the most recent copy of Black Powder Cartridge Rifle, there was a letter to the editor about a gentleman that used one of these .451 rifles against center fires. It was a timed fire match of 45 minutes for each leg. He had high score for the overall at 800, 900, & 1000 yards.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I think that's it's been said, but I'll gladly add my 2 cent's worth with an analogy:

Let's talk really big calibers to illustrate why a bigger projectile is more accurate at longer ranges. An 8" naval rifle fired from a WW2 Cruiser is accurate and can only travel half the distance (maybe!) of a 16" shell fired from an Iowa class Battleship. The 2,900 pound projectile from the Battleship can go more than 25 miles, with accuracy! It's mass lessens wind effects...just like that huge chunk of lead coming out of the barrel of the Gibbs! Hold onto that thing though, cause it's going to ROCK YOUR WORLD!

Taking this concept a step further, I'm thinking about ordering a fast-twist custom barrel for my trade rifle .50 cal, say about 40 inches long or so. Then put 100 grains of 3Fg down the throat, a couple of over-powder cards and a 370 grain Maxi to hurl towards the target. I'm willing to bet that I'll improve my scores over the stock 1 in 48" twist, 28" barrel that came with it!

Dave

 

[BillinOregon]

Guys, it appears the new fast-twist Gibbs in .40 will shoot with the .451s at long range, and that is saying something. At the 18th LRML match held last weekend in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, a John Austin of Florida came in 8th out of 28 shooters with scores of 89 at 300, 80 (xx) at 600 and 64 at 1,000 yards for a 233 aggregate score. He used the Pedersoli Gibbs .40 with a 438-grain grease-groove bullet cast 30:1 over 80 grains Swiss FFg. As Artie Johnson used to say in the bushes on "Laugh-In," "verrrrrry interesting ...."

 

[CoyoteJoe]

That's an interesting analogy there Smokin.50 but not quite correct. It is the ballistic coefficient of the projectile which counts, not the gross mass. Compare a .50 caliber round ball with a 180 grain .30 caliber centerfire match bullet. They have approximately the same mass but the round ball will have roughly 20 times the wind drift at 200 yards and who even knows at 500.
The .40 caliber shooters are thinking that a lighter bullet of .40 caliber can match the ballistic coefficient of the .45 and equal or exceed the velocity with less powder, thus considerably less recoil. Recoil is a big factor when shooting prone and firing a long string of shots in a match.
A custom fast twist barrel likely will improve the accuracy of your .50 caliber maxi's but the maxi ball is no long range bullet, it's ballistic coefficient is better than a round ball but not by a great deal. I'd recommend a 36" Green Mountain fast twist barrel, or even the 32" "drop-in" fast twist barrel and then invest in a custom bullet mould with better ballistic coefficient. And, unless your hunting regs require .50 caliber, I recommend .45, to get good ballistics in a .50 caliber you need 750 grain bullet. That is why you don't see many .50 calibers in the long range matches.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

You're right of course...I just didn't know how to spell co-efficient! :surrender: .

I don't shoot long range...the longest shot I take now is only 100 yards. Some off-hand and some on crossed sticks. There's no need for me to switch-over to .45 cal for a ML as I already own a .45-70 that I don't use much. I'm just figuring that the longer barrel would give me a faster Maxi and let me use some more powder, and a longer sight picture for these old eyes :wink: . Sort of a special application to give me an edge to go up against the Inl**es at our local match, where I do most of my BP shooting!

Thanks for the input though!

Dave

The thought of hurling a slug almost twice as big as I'm doing now is interesting :hmm: . It might HURT some, but people would be talking as soon as they laid eyes on that conical! :shocked2:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The thought of hurling a slug almost twice as big as I'm doing now is interesting :hmm: . It might HURT some, but people would be talking as soon as they laid eyes on that conical! :shocked2:

Yep, I expect it would hurt! That is why I feel .45 caliber is about the largest bore for conical bullet shooting, to get a good ballistic coefficient in the larger caliber requires a lot of lead and if loaded over about 1200 fps the recoil becomes considerable. That's why Whitworth settled on .451" in the first place, he found by extensive experimentation that it was the best bore in which to shoot the government specified charge of powder and lead. That is also why there were very few black powder cartridge rifles built over .45 caliber, the .50 calibers died with the buffalo.