Why Muzzleloading Barrels so Long?

[dcriner]

Traditional ML firearms tend to be heavy. I assume that the old barrel materials, not having the strength of modern alloys, had to be extra thick.

But what about the barrel length (which also contributes to weight)? By modern standards, ML rifles and pistols have long barrels. Why?

I've wondered if in shooting round balls, for example, maybe the extra length was necessary to stabilize the rotation of the ball? But even rifled muzzleloaders designed for bullets or mini-balls tend to have long barrels.

A longer barrel would provide a more accurate sight picture between the front and back sights, right? True, but at such an expense of weight?

Hard to understand.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I'm guessing.

I don't think it was the sight picture, because if you go back far enough they didn't have much for sights.

All I can come up with is a steady hold, and more time for the powder to burn.

 

[Norinco]

Definitely to ensure completer burn of the powder and therefore higher muzzle velocity.

 

[Flintlock]

Longer barrels burnt powder more efficiently. From what I understand some powders varied greatly. I've read traded powder was sometimes terrible. Maybe long barrels were the reason there was not as much road hunting 200 years ago.

 

[dcriner]

OK, thanks. The barrel being long enough to optimize the burning of the powder makes sense to me.

Nowadays, I would just adjust the powder granulation to suit the barrel length - for rifles, maybe FFg, for pistols FFFg. Which raises another question - for which I will start a new thread.
Doug

 

[Norinco]

We do adjust the granulation, but for caliber, not barrel length. It's still blackpowder and slow burning. Finer grain powder in a short barrel will not give the same performance as a long barrel and proper powder.

 

[jethro224]

Well, back in the day, they carried their longrifles with them everywhere always. When they got to where they were going they would stand around in small groups and BS with each other.
Did ya ever try and stand around leaning on a short barreled rifle? It ain't near as comfortable. :wink:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Well, back in the day, they carried their longrifles with them everywhere always. When they got to where they were going they would stand around in small groups and BS with each other.
Did ya ever try and stand around leaning on a short barreled rifle? It ain't near as comfortable. :wink:

Unless you were short.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Hey, don't beet-up on us vertically challenged guys! The end of my Walker doesn't touch the ground yet when I'm a wearin' it!

Dave

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Didn't mean to offend shorty.

 

[mattybock]

while, yes, longer barrels burned powder more gooderly, the big reason for a long barrel was actually... accuracy.
You had one shot, and a slow one at that- it had to count.
take you thumbs and put one near your eye, like a sight, and put your other thumb right in front of it. imagine these are sights and at that little distance they are pretty easy to line up, aren't they? Seems wherever you point is a bull's eye.
Well, extend your arm and check one more 'gain.

Ain't so easy now is it? That long sight plain meant that aiming wasn't that little derringer shot, but a longer, well aimed rifle shot.

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is no doubt that a longer sight radius will give you better accuracy shooting IRON SIGHTS> But, we tend to forget that the quality of black powder available 300 years ago was nothing like what we have today. To even get close to understanding original BP ballistics, you need to use at least Fg powder in your gun.

You also have to remember that until after the French and Indian War concluded after 1763, the few Rifled Guns were of very large Bore sizes- much like the muskets and smoothbores of the day.Yes, Rifles did exist before `1750, but there is no indication that they were widely available or used much earlier. We know that rifles were being developed in Spain, Italy, and in the German states among other European countries long before 1750.

Large bore rifles today tend to be fired using FFg powder, but they work fairly well using Fg powder as well.

The larger granules of black powder burn slower in a barrel, and longer barrels made sure that the powder burned completely. So, those long barrels provided both more complete powder burning, using the powder available then, AND a long sight radius, on rifles, to allow a more accurate placement of a Ball at distances in excess of 50 yds. YOu don't see FFFg powder granulations advertised much before the earliest Percussion guns came on the scene(in the first quarter of the 19th century), and, nearly at the same time that manufacturers could finally make smaller caliber( .54 and smaller) Rifled Barrels. You also see the understanding of Rifling Rate of Twist, and how it affects shooting Bullets, developed after 1800, so that the calibers, length of bullets, types of bullets, and faster Rate of Twist all are being developed in the same first half of the 19th century, along with percussion rifles.

What you are asking about goes way back, almost to the dawn of BP firearms in the 14th century.

For those who wish to be Historically Correct, and Period Correct( HC/PC) you probably need to worry more about what gun you load with FFFg powder, than with the two coarser granules. :hmm:

 

[Norinco]

You can also hit harder with a longer barreled gun when you have to use it as a club. Longer barrels gave your bayonet more reach. That reach was especially useful when fending off cavalry. Even through WWI, military rifles were especially long to give the bayonets extra reach even in an age when smokeless powder made extra long barrels no longer necessary.

While I don't think that was a primary reason for the long barrels, I do think it was the reason that people didn't complain too much about having to lug around such a long weapon as long as cavalry was a threat.

 

[tg]

To start with many originals were quite light even with 44'+ barrels some were under 7lbs the barrel thickness varied with guns and countries French used thicker walls at the breech than the English, some smoothrifles had heavier barrels for B&B still many longrifles were in the 7-9+ lb range, not really a heavy gun to carry all day I have used these for many years an find them quite managable,a lot of todays offerings are not close to the originals in weight due to straight barrels and way to much wood, custom guns will get one much closer in weight and feel. the barrel length is mainly due to the mindset of the time that a longer barrel was needed for the most efficient use of the powder, practicaly the only real advantage was a better sight radius and maybe better patterns with shot, when we mix the thoughts of today with the thoughts of the past things can get a bit mixed up.The long barrel also are not a problem in the brush once a person gets used to them and adjusts accordingly at least that has been my experience, it is usually best to let go of most modern ideas about guns and start over, trying to just use the guns and acceot any differences and adjust to make them comfortable, which does not take long or a great deal of effort.I suspect that if they had a true understanding of ballistics back then the barrels would have been much shorter.Cannon barrel kept getting longer and longer untill they determined that 8-10 ' was the max for efficiency I do not think the same acceptance of this fact for rifles or smoothbores came along till much later even into the early cartridge era.

 

[tg]

"Did ya ever try and stand around leaning on a short barreled rifle? It ain't near as comfortable.'


Hey Jethro! I though that from many of the posts I have seen that the current fad is to gather in a circle while sitting on the muzzle end rather than leaning on it, :hmm: :idunno:

 

[jethro224]

Which brings up another point... Safety. It's dang near impossible to shoot yourself in the rear with a long barrel.

 

[Danbo]

Traditional ML firearms tend to be heavy. I assume that the old barrel materials, not having the strength of modern alloys, had to be extra thick.

But what about the barrel length (which also contributes to weight)? By modern standards, ML rifles and pistols have long barrels. Why?

I've wondered if in shooting round balls, for example, maybe the extra length was necessary to stabilize the rotation of the ball? But even rifled muzzleloaders designed for bullets or mini-balls tend to have long barrels.

A longer barrel would provide a more accurate sight picture between the front and back sights, right? True, but at such an expense of weight?

Hard to understand.

Don't pay any mind to this expert advice you're getting here. They may be right, but where's the fun in that?

1) Not all ML/CL rifles are heavy. My .45 flinter has a 42" barrel and weighs 7#3. My .50 caliber cap lock weighs 16#. Go figure.
2) The barrels are long cause back in the day they figured it the best way to protect your ears from hearing damage.
3) Barrels are long so's to make a good club that's longer than the other guy's knife.
4) Barrels are longer 'cause back then they didn't have optical shops and a long sight radius helps old eyes.
5) Long barrels keep folks from shootin' themselves in the foot
6) If you carry a ML pistol, long barrels on rifles make for good crutches.
7) Long barrels shorten the distance of the shot
8) Long barrels tend to put weight forward, making for better offhand shooting.


Any other theories are welcome. Some of the above is true, there will be a multiple choice test at the end of class.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Here's a question for you guys.

What barrel would be best for holding steady in the offhand position.

A heavy short barrel, or a light long barrel?

 

[nchawkeye]

It's easier to blow down a longer barrel...

There were plenty of Jeagers built that had shorter barrels...

I'll say all the previous answers as well as "that's just the style they were used to...

 

[Danbo]

It's not a matter of weight, it's one of balance. Having weight forward tends to load the moment arm of the gun forward and reduce the tremors/wobbles/wandering front sight. How much forward is a matter of personal determination. Don't think there's a formula for figuring that out.

Butt heavy rifles are poop for offhand shooting...IMO.