Why the "Skychief" load works?

[coloradoclyde]

In doing some research, I stumbled upon a patent description from the 1960's that may explain why the "Skycheif" load works, when it seems counter intuitive.

Although the description is about a plastic wad in a cartridge, it describes the same ballistic conditions and principles you would find in a muzzleloader and need to adhere to or overcome....

Wad columns, which in a shell separate the propellent powder from the shot mass, have been used in various forms. The purpose of the wad is twofold. First it must provide a gas seal, preventing leakage through it as well as around it, as it is being propelled by the gas pressure behind it. It must also have elastic properties in order to produce a cushioning effect against the sudden impact of the enormous force generated by the explosive charge, thus allowing a gradual acceleration of the shot from the shell. Unless the wad column has' adequate compressibility to enable expansion of the gas prior to and during the movement of the shot charge, the pressure produced by the sudden generation of gas would produce undesirable effects, manifested in particular by the strong recoil of the gun.

The above dual functions of the wad appear incompat'ible. To prevent gas leakage requires a solid barrel sealing substance, whereas to prevent excessive peak pressure necessitates a highly compressible medium. Various attempts have been made, heretofore, to provide wad columns consisting of portions made up of different materials having the desired properties which had to be assembled in the body of the shell. Wad columns made of plastic materials such as polyethylene and molded in such manner as to have some elastic portion have been used in order to obtain the desired sealing strength and also the cushioning effect.

The drawback of composite wads and resilient member structures is manifested in uneven distribution of the gas pressure, resulting a Wobbling of the shot, as well as gas leakage due to the deforming of the cushioning material.

It is a particular object of this invention to provide a wad column which is firm enough to hold its shape at the pressure to which it is subjected and thus prevent gas leakage.

It is a further object of the invention to provide a plastic wad column which when compressed by the explosive charge maintains axial alignment.

One can extrapolate a lot of benefits of the addition A large overshot wad in the column from the text above....
Stabilization.
alignment
cushioning.
gas sealing.
The above claims also lend insight into the possible reasons why a person's loads may or may not work effectively...
These principals of "alignment" and "stability" also show up in other patent descriptions.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Interesting but I don't buy the cushioning thing at all!

B.

 

[Grenadier1758]

But for the Skychief load, the cushion wad is on top.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Top and bottom...isn't it?

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Our late lamented member Paul Vallandingham used to speak of the help that lubrication of the bore of the shotgun above the shot column provided to patterning. Maybe this is a factor in the success of the Skychief heavily lubed wad over the column?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Perhaps....But why does it?.. :hmm:

 

[smo]

Back in the 70’s a lot of Guys would put Vaseline in the bore under the theory it helped hold the shot together.

Did it work? I don’t know , but they won a bunch of turkeys and hams. :shocked2:


These were not Muzzleloading guns however.

 

[Skychief]

Top and bottom...isn't it?

Hey Clyde.

The load has a lubed cushion wad on top of the shot.

Below the shot, I use a thick card, or better yet, a "nitro" card.

Best regards, Skychief :hatsoff:

 

[azmntman]

I started loading that exact way in the 90's EXCEPT I just used a single overshot card on top of powder, maybe this spring I will get time to take the 20ga (that slaps the SH_T outta my cheek) to the woods and try with a nitro card. Even just the over shot card was working wayy better than the "correct" load sequence :hatsoff:

 

[Rifleman1776]

But for the Skychief load, the cushion wad is on top.

Puzzzles me that it works. :hmm:
Methinks the heavy lubed cushion wad over the shot would blow a dognut hole pattern. But, if it works for someone it might be OK, I'll not be experimenting with that load.

 

[George]

The load has a lubed cushion wad on top of the shot.

I think there's a strong clue there as to why it works. You mentioned in an earlier discussion that if you soaked the wad with lube so that it was heavier, it gave you a tighter pattern. That weight is the clue, for me. The only thing I can come up with as to what is happening is that the shot column is staying together longer because the cushion wad is breaking trail in front of it, and it's drafting. It has to be true that drag is high for the cushion wad, trying to slow it down. It's also true that the heavier the wad is the better it will be able to resist drag and keep breaking trail.

If I'm right that the weight is the tell, that is good evidence the cushion wad is protecting the shot column from air drag for a while, allowing it to stay tightly bunched and resulting in a tighter pattern. The heavier it is the longer it keeps protecting the shot, and the tighter the pattern, which is the result we see. Works for me.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

I just came across some of your testing.....
Guess I'm back to the drawing board.... :idunno:

In another thread, Skychief said:


Happy to.

Under cover of the "shock and awe" of our 4th of July fireworks, I did a one-shot test of Skychief's special (and weird :wink: ) load using my flintlock smoothbore, 46", 20 gauge, cylinder bore. The load was 60 grains 2F, one 1/8" hard card, 1 ounce of #5 chilled shot, a thin overshot wad, topped with a 1/2" cushion wad soaked in olive oil to a weight of 35 grains. I set up a piece of cardboard 46" x 32" with a half sheet of typing paper 8.5" x 5.5" as an aiming spot taped on. Measured off 50 yards, aimed a bit high to allow for the drop and fired one shot.

When I counted the hits I was pretty surprised. There were 7 in the typing paper spot, dead squirrel, 162 in the top of the cardboard. That seemed strange, since 1 ounce of #5 shot has only 170 pellets. My stash of #5 shot has had a little smaller shot mixed in by accident over the years, so I suspected there might have been more than 170 pellets in my load. To check that I measured out 1 ounce of #5 from my stash and counted them, got 180 pellets. So, almost all the shot charge was on the cardboard, in an area 32" x 36". From a cylinder bore, at 50 yards? Impressive.





I had used this exact same load in this gun on my last squirrel hunt and got a shot at a big fox squirrel at 25 yards in the clear. It was very thoroughly killed, had to discard some meat.

I ran a patterning test with this load a couple of years ago at 20 yards, and had essentially the same result, pellet count was more like a full choke than a cylinder bore.

I plan to continue checking out this unusual load when squirrel season opens in August, will carry my double flintlock and load one barrel with Skychief's load, one with my regular load using 2 hard cards over powder and no cushion wad. I think the squirrels are in serious trouble, got 'em covered near and far. :wink:

There's little doubt in my mind that this load will reach out and get them better than most any other load I've ever tried, and I've tried a lot.

Skychief... :thumbsup:

Spence

 

[Britsmoothy]

I see it slightly different.
I see the weight of the soaked wad means it's deceleration is, relative to a very light OS card less.
I can imagine how a light OS card may as well be a stationary brick compared to the momentum of the shot pellets and thus disrupts the front if not all the pellets.

The wet wad on the other hand falls away from the path of the shot load more gradually causing less disruption.

B.

 

[riverrat43]

What powder charge and shot weight, (No. 6) would you start with in a sxs 12 ga?

 

[Britsmoothy]

1oz and same volume of powder.

B.

 

[Grenadier1758]

That would work out to be 70 grains of black powder (or substitute) measured by volume.

Go to the reference section. Claude has provided a reference table of general loads for use in shotguns.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Impressive.

Yes. But still very puzzling. :hmm:
Did you find a big hole from the cushion wad?

Edit: I'm still very-very puzzled this works. I recall one (rifle) match I shot in using a heavily lubed patch of beeswax and whale oil. Not my usual method. At 50 yards the patch hit the target and put a second hole in it separate from the ball. A heavily oil soaked wad I can only surmise could/would act the same way and destroy the shot pattern. More testing is needed to convince me. Come greenup I'll test it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

More than anything, I want a measurable standard to beat.... :grin:

 

[Britsmoothy]

How about an illustration.

A locomotive comes unlatched to the cars behind it and pulls away a few feet. Now imagine the locomotive suddenly stops. What do you think will happen to the cars?
Yep, they will smash all directions. That is what a light OS card does.

Now imagine the same locomotive pulling away a few feet and veering off the track, the cars are free to
do their own thing.
This is how the momentum of the locomotive kept it moving long enough to get out of the way of the cars.
This is what the heavy wet fibre wad does when on top of the shot.
The exact same principle as to why a wet heavy fibre wad in black powder guns produce doughnut patterns.
There is nothing mystical or magic to it really.

B.

 

[CapPopper]

Well if I had to guess id say the heavy wad keeps up with the shot but because of it weight drops very quickly compared to the shot so it rapidly falls out of the way (same reason a heavy minie hits so much lower than a ball) where as the thin light over shot wads hit the air outside the barrel and slow very very rapidly id say they try to spin as well like a dropped playing card or sheet of paper but since they have so much surface area they slow down and do this flip/spin thing while the shot goes around them likely within a few feets of the muzzle which throws the shot in all sorts of directions .... Just my take but the heavy lubed wad wouldn't slow down would hit much lower than the shot and fall out of the way of the column and in this way doesn't disturb the shot anywhere near as much