Why the "Skychief" load works?

[smo]

Interesting links posted.. thinking back on Stumpkillers comment on roughing the bore.

Looking back on my training in Auto Mechanics,
When rebuilding an engine it is or was common practice to hone the cylinder walls so the piston rings will seat better.

So if a bore was honed , not just the last inch or so but the full length of the barrel.

Would this not help the wad create a better gas seal in the bore?

Better seal... better pattern?

Could this be achieved by simply “scouring” the bore with 000 or 0000 steel wool?
:shocked2: :idunno:

I’m wondering if the pressure created by ignition behind the wet wad is causing the wad to expand against the wall of the bore creating a better seal and more consistent pattern due to gasses not blowing by the wad and the shot ?

I’m thinking the weight of the wad is creating just the right amount of resistance in the bore , along with the oil helping to “seal” the bore much like in a gasoline engine cylinder wall...

Which leads to a better pattern... :hmm: :idunno:

:shake: This is making my head hurt....

 

[garra]

I think wetting the wad creates the best seal. Think of the hand tire pumps we used as kids. You had to occasionally wet or grease the leather seal on the plunger so it would push air. A dry seal in this case didn't move air or seal as effeciently.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Leather wads works awesome....They are my favorite.. If you plug the vent they wont go down the barrel....no air gets past them...

Which leads to another thought about the top wad sealing better than the bottom wad and the possible affects. :hmm: ....

 

[hunts4deer]

OK, here is a thought I've had about this. It might be possible that the relatively thin overpowder wads very easily cock sideways a bit under all that gas pressure behind them and allow gas pressure to build up within and among the shot. But, the well-lubed wad in front of the shot creates a much better seal... so what happens is that the front wad starts moving down the barrel well ahead of the shot and by the time it exits the muzzle it is well out in front. By the time the shot catches up to the wad the pattern has spread out a bit and IF the shot cloud passes the wad before reaching target, the shot is hardly affected by the wad. This would be because the relative size of the wad to the now spreading pattern means the wad slipped though the pattern without having much effect. If you follow me.

 

[CapPopper]

That's not impossible either and also not unlikely and it could be a combination of all 3 things really focussed here

 

[Zonie]

...

Looking back on my training in Auto Mechanics,
When rebuilding an engine it is or was common practice to hone the cylinder walls so the piston rings will seat better.

So if a bore was honed , not just the last inch or so but the full length of the barrel.

Would this not help the wad create a better gas seal in the bore?

...

I don't think honing would help.

The reason cylinder walls are honed when new piston rings are fitted is to help them break in.

New piston rings do not exactly match the cylinder wall.

If the wall is honed, roughening up the surface, it causes the piston rings over time, to wear off the mismatched areas. This allows the rest of the piston ring to make contact with the cylinder creating a gas tight seal.

This takes time, even though the piston is moving up and down thousands of times per minute.
IMO, the one time a wad passes thru the roughened bore would not have much effect on making the wad conform to the barrel as it is shot downrange.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Brake pads are the same way...new pads have a thin abrasive surface on the face to help them mate to the rotor.

 

[smo]

I was thinking by scuffing the bore it would help create more drag on the wad, which I think would help in building pressure behind the wad.

Much like the example given on the bicycle air pump.

Or putting oil on the piston of your favorite air rifle.

It’s been 45 years since my mechanics training and I had forgotten about the rings seating.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Interesting topic.

It sounds a bit like the bumble-bee, ...shouldn't be able to fly but it does!

Will give it a go, But, can't help hearing in my head the writings from "An Essay On Shooting" (1790-something I think,)
Where they tried all sorts of combinations in a very thorough manner, including barrels slightly rough or narrower at the breech to retard the charge, to relieved at the muzzle -end, (William Fullard type work )and deduced after a great deal of trial, thet the normal cylinder -bore barrel well bored and polished worked as well as any other.
Wadding at that time was still paper, tow, stuffing from an old saddle, or moss from trees.
A decent wad was rammed down, the shot, then an over-shot wad of more or less any material, (grass, little bit of paper, anything light for a single barrel, more solid for a double to hold shot in place)
With these charges they shot better than we usually do today.
So! If Skychief's "Bumblebee" works we can't knock it, and it's definitely worth a go, but to me it "sounds' wrong.
Will do some patterning when I get time and let you know.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Zonie]

Let us know, good or bad, what the results of your testing is.

Just a thought on the idea that a thin over-shot card will slow down and disrupt the column of shot behind it when it's fired:

It is undoubtably true that the lightweight card will try to slow down rapidly but my question is, would that actually deflect or spread the column of shot behind it?

If it does, would a clump of moss, grass or hay which I think would tend to break up into bits and pieces almost the instant of firing also deflect the shot pattern?

Has anyone tested the effects of moss, grass or hay vs. a hard over shot card?

 

[Skychief]

Interesting topic.

It sounds a bit like the bumble-bee, ...shouldn't be able to fly but it does!

Will give it a go, But, can't help hearing in my head the writings from "An Essay On Shooting" (1790-something I think,)
Where they tried all sorts of combinations in a very thorough manner, including barrels slightly rough or narrower at the breech to retard the charge, to relieved at the muzzle -end, (William Fullard type work )and deduced after a great deal of trial, thet the normal cylinder -bore barrel well bored and polished worked as well as any other.
Wadding at that time was still paper, tow, stuffing from an old saddle, or moss from trees.
A decent wad was rammed down, the shot, then an over-shot wad of more or less any material, (grass, little bit of paper, anything light for a single barrel, more solid for a double to hold shot in place)
With these charges they shot better than we usually do today.
So! If Skychief's "Bumblebee" works we can't knock it, and it's definitely worth a go, but to me it "sounds' wrong.
Will do some patterning when I get time and let you know.

All the best,
Richard.

Richard, welcome to the forum!

To all, the load seems to shine in cylinder bores. Choked tubes show less improvement in patterns, if any at all. I won't hazard a guess as to why. Thought it worth mentioning here.

When the topic emerges, this seems to need repeating for those new to the topic.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[CapPopper]

Hmm could be that the choke slows the wad down.... So maybe the powder burning does push the wad ahead of the shot down the bore...

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Let us know, good or bad, what the results of your testing is.

Just a thought on the idea that a thin over-shot card will slow down and disrupt the column of shot behind it when it's fired:

It is undoubtably true that the lightweight card will try to slow down rapidly but my question is, would that actually deflect or spread the column of shot behind it?

When it comes to more modern shotgun ammo I remember the halcyon days of paper hulls, lead shot, overshot cards and roll crimps.

I also remember when one our ammunition companies was marketing shells with the star or folding crimp they took high speed photos of the shot column in flight that had been fired from shells with an overshot card and a roll crimp.

The photos revealed that the cards were deflecting some of the pellets in the column. This was not happening in the shot columns of the shells with a star crimp.

Now obviously they wanted to sell their shot shells with a star crimp but I don't think they were selling a load of snake oil to go with them. It made sense to me anyway.

 

[CapPopper]

Seems likely I can't see an over shot card being good for patterens since the shot column has to pass it

 

[Zonie]

Yes, the shot column has to pass the card wad but it also has to pass the heavy, oiled up fiber wad that seems to extend the pattern.

What now grasshopper? :grin:

OK, your not a grasshopper. I guess you had to watch the old Kung Fu shows to appreciate what I said.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Some of David Caradine's best work.

I swear I remember seeing high speed film of OS cards being stripped away....not passing through the pattern....

 

[coloradoclyde]

"donut holes" are more a function of dispersion than anything else.....

According to the book "Shotgunning the Art and the Science" by Bob Brister

"Shot dispersion is a function of air density". It states that a cylinder bore shotgun fired in a vaccum would deliver full choke performance....
He also states that patterns will be tighter at altitude than at sea level.

This also explains Skychief's load...The wad is deflecting the air and placing the shot in a burble, (vaccum)

 

[coloradoclyde]

Another book probably worth reading is,

Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns

by George G. & Thompson, Charles E. Oberfell, Charles E. Thompson

 

[CapPopper]

I think air density only plays a part and the way the air travels over the shot and shot deformation have as much to do with it.... If it was solely air density then all shot that was shaped "perfectly" would all fly together also it wouldn't matter that the choke squished them together they would have the same amount of dispersion... The idea the shot is drafting the wad may be fairly accurate but I also believe that the heavy lubed wad stays in front of the shot longer so when the column does pass it there is less disrupted shot.... Donuts can be caused by many things including disruption of the column by an outside force such as a wad or card... I may not be old but I've lived and breathed guns everyday of my life im only fairly new to being serious about black powder... I've got a 6.5x284 Norma in my safe I built on a Bruno k98 action that will shoot bug holes at 300 yards I know my stuff lol

 

[CapPopper]

The heavy wad stays in front longer and starts to drop out of the way all the while the shot drafts off of it and it may even beat the column out of the bore due to it sealing of gas better than the over powder card does so by the time the column passes it the wad on disrupts a few pellets instead of half the column like a light over shot card could potentially do caused by less mass and great air resistance... This is all hypothetical of course until someone high speeds the skycheif load we won't know but id say at 1000 +fps that light overshot card slowing down in front of the column especially if it also gets pushed out before the shot column and slows down could really cause some pellet dispersion... That's my take on it I could be entirely wrong of course... But it meshes with physics ... We won't know until someone finally films it