Wider Wedge Anyone

[Larry-in-Eastbay]

I have a Armi San Marcos 1860 that was added to a package purchase that I threw into a drawer for 10 years and now have an interest in it.

Fired it at the range and it works fine-will deal with point of aim later.....but the Dragons fire Breath out the sides was rather stimulating.

Not interested in being a goober and slicing my hands open..... or in rare event throwing something to someone at my side so I measure the end shake.

It measures 0.039" at half cock which is rather wide.
Even the barrel to frame has endshake, maybe 0.006-0.008" to my best ability to measure
Seems folks shoot for the 0.010" gap for less dragons fire but allowing a few cylinders of firing before binding.

I see the wedge in this sucker is bottomed out on the stop screw.
No amount of pounding will make it tighter.
Wedge can be easily removed with just my hands.
Plus the stop screw does not stop this wedge as it can be fully removed.

Examining this sucker I see
-The wedge had a love affair with a grinder on three sides, with multi-facets on the grinding and nothing flat
-The barrel fitment to frame on the bottom has been grinded/filed on the barrel side-but much better than the wedge as there are no facets-its flat
-For whatever reason the barrel face where it matches to the cylinder has been filed or grinded creating a larger flat surface but of course a larger end shake.
-Obviously the previous owner was experimenting with the fitment.
-Barrel has a bit of corrosion but does not look shot out, frame is steel

I tried my 2nd gen colt wedge and bottoming out without stop screw and all the way gives a 0.013" end shake, not bad except thats way past where it would be with the stop screw in, plus I would have to shave that wedge or screw to install that screw so I do not know what the final end shake would be. The barrel fitment may need a bit of shaving if I find a wider wedge to use to get to that 0.010"

I tried my Pietta 1860 wedge and I get 0.020" with wedge in all the way to the screw, or 0.014" all the way in without the screw.
If the best solution can not be found then I will just purchase a new Pietta wedge to cut my endshake in half but double the Internet Gun Gurus Ideal recommendation.

It seems the simplest solution for me is a wider than standard wedge to bring that endshake down.

I am aware of the peening method on the edges of the wedge to get a few thousands more wedging but have not tried that yet-still holding out for the more elegant solution.
I am aware some members here would make their own wider wedge..... but that's a bit to much work for this ol' gun as I have better things to do.
I am aware of the welding or soldering/shim stock method to repair wedges, likely will try this if a purchased solution is not available.

It seems to me that this would be a somewhat common issue, where a slightly wider wedge would be the solution.
With Google upping advertisements hits to big payola merchants and downing any gun work/modification related search result my google fu skills can not find such a thing.

Can anyone provide a source/link to a slightly wider than standard wedge?
I can file to fit easy peasy

Sorry for the Novella but I wish to squash answers that have no value to me that send the thread is some weird direction.

 

[Tyler L]

If you can't find a wider wedge, you could add a 1/4-28 set screw to the end of the arbor to fine-tune the wedge fit.
Some examples:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/need-help-with-sloppy-wedge.167882/page-2#post-2411264https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/need-help-with-sloppy-wedge.167882/#post-2409651

 

[n.h.schmidt]

If he did that, the gap would still be way to large. A wider wedge is still the best fix. A shim on the existing wedge would work too. There could be a problem of the barrel pointing up to the sky once the tighter gap is set.

 

[45D]

If he did that, the gap would still be way to large. A wider wedge is still the best fix. A shim on the existing wedge would work too. There could be a problem of the barrel pointing up to the sky once the tighter gap is set.

Correction: if he did that, he wouldn't need another wedge.

The problem is more than likely the slot in the arbor and the slot in the barrel assy are the same at the rear of the slot. The slot in the arbor needs to be further to the rear than the slot in the barrel assy. That's why the "gap" doesn't change.

 

[n.h.schmidt]

Would that not still leave him with a too large gap?

 

[Dude]

I've been through something similar with an Armi San Paulo .36. Somehow the previous owner neglected giving me the history of his frustrations with the gun. Then again, if he'd divulged that info, I'd probably not have bought it, or would have paid him much less.

The arbor on mine was short almost as much as the end shake. To remove the end shake on mine I milled down the frame lug to bring the barrel back. If you can't get it any closer than .013" then you might have to do that to remove another .010". Shoot for an end shake of about .003"

The back of the wedge (back = hammer side) pushes on the barrel slot, so make sure the arbor slot is farther back where it won't touch the wedge. On the front side, the wedge contacts only the arbor slot, not the barrel.

 

[45D]

Would that not still leave him with a too large gap?

Depends on WHAT the problem is. If it's what I said it may be, YES. If he NEEDS a wider wedge, the 1/4 X 28 set screw in the arbor would be the "easy" answer ( he still wouldn't need another wedge). Of course, he may have better things to do . . .

Mike

 

[Forrest Smith]

I had a similar problem with most of the wedge keys being to narrow and not quite thick enough. If you will look at my thread you can see the new wedge pins I made for my Lyman GP rifle. They fill the slot better now and quite please how they turned out. They were not to hard to make either.

 

[45D]

I a similar problem with most of the wedge keys being to narrow and not quite thick enough. If you will look at my thread you can see the new wedge pins I made for my Lyman GP rifle. They fill the slot better now and quite please how they turned out. They were not to hard to make either.

Different wedge.

Mike

 

[KingOfKindling]

Got access to a welder? I'd just add metal to the Pietta wedge on one side and then file it to fit.

Easier than making your own, though wedge springs can be purchased if you wanted to go that route.

ETA: Uberti wedge might be wider than Pietta. I'll have to measure some.

ETA Again:

Measured two unmolested wedges, one Pietta, one Uberti.

Pietta Wide: 0.5140
Pietta Narrow: 0.4760

Uberti Wide: 0.5260
Uberti Narrow: 0.4935

 

[M. De Land]

I have a Armi San Marcos 1860 that was added to a package purchase that I threw into a drawer for 10 years and now have an interest in it.

Fired it at the range and it works fine-will deal with point of aim later.....but the Dragons fire Breath out the sides was rather stimulating.

Not interested in being a goober and slicing my hands open..... or in rare event throwing something to someone at my side so I measure the end shake.

It measures 0.039" at half cock which is rather wide.
Even the barrel to frame has endshake, maybe 0.006-0.008" to my best ability to measure
Seems folks shoot for the 0.010" gap for less dragons fire but allowing a few cylinders of firing before binding.

I see the wedge in this sucker is bottomed out on the stop screw.
No amount of pounding will make it tighter.
Wedge can be easily removed with just my hands.
Plus the stop screw does not stop this wedge as it can be fully removed.

Examining this sucker I see
-The wedge had a love affair with a grinder on three sides, with multi-facets on the grinding and nothing flat
-The barrel fitment to frame on the bottom has been grinded/filed on the barrel side-but much better than the wedge as there are no facets-its flat
-For whatever reason the barrel face where it matches to the cylinder has been filed or grinded creating a larger flat surface but of course a larger end shake.
-Obviously the previous owner was experimenting with the fitment.
-Barrel has a bit of corrosion but does not look shot out, frame is steel

I tried my 2nd gen colt wedge and bottoming out without stop screw and all the way gives a 0.013" end shake, not bad except thats way past where it would be with the stop screw in, plus I would have to shave that wedge or screw to install that screw so I do not know what the final end shake would be. The barrel fitment may need a bit of shaving if I find a wider wedge to use to get to that 0.010"

I tried my Pietta 1860 wedge and I get 0.020" with wedge in all the way to the screw, or 0.014" all the way in without the screw.
If the best solution can not be found then I will just purchase a new Pietta wedge to cut my endshake in half but double the Internet Gun Gurus Ideal recommendation.

It seems the simplest solution for me is a wider than standard wedge to bring that endshake down.

I am aware of the peening method on the edges of the wedge to get a few thousands more wedging but have not tried that yet-still holding out for the more elegant solution.
I am aware some members here would make their own wider wedge..... but that's a bit to much work for this ol' gun as I have better things to do.
I am aware of the welding or soldering/shim stock method to repair wedges, likely will try this if a purchased solution is not available.

It seems to me that this would be a somewhat common issue, where a slightly wider wedge would be the solution.
With Google upping advertisements hits to big payola merchants and downing any gun work/modification related search result my google fu skills can not find such a thing.

Can anyone provide a source/link to a slightly wider than standard wedge?
I can file to fit easy peasy

Sorry for the Novella but I wish to squash answers that have no value to me that send the thread is some weird direction.

A couple points need addressed if you are going to use a wider wedge. The front of the slots in the barrel will sometimes need to be elongated to allow a wider wedge to go through farther and push the barrel back against the front of the arbor slot.
Some of the models have very thin steel left in front of the arbor slots in the arbor and are not good candidates for drilling and tapping a set screw to adjust arbor slot key/wedge fit. A rule of thumb I use for safety is the depth of steel left in front of the arbor slot must be equal to the cross section of the set screw used for the job and the set screw needs to be at least equal to the width of the slot for full wedge contact,
I make new wedges of tool steel and hardened for my guns and make them fit snug fully vertically as well as horizontally which is why they don't back out on me and don't have to be pounded in until they smoke. All they need is a couple of bumps from a screw driver handle or stick of wood.
You are right about it taking some time to make them correctly though ,over half a day with heat treating and all. If there is enough steel left in front of the arbor ahead of the slot then the set screw fix is much easier.

 

[Majorfs45]

Several to pick from.

 

[45D]

Several to pick from.

Holy Cow!!!! THOSE WON'T WORK IN A REVOLVER !!! THIS THREAD CONCERNS A REVOLVER!!!!!!

 

[Smokerr]

My reaction as well though I would put it a lot stronger than that.

 

[Dude]

One thing to point out - that screw isn't to stop the wedge from going deeper. It's there for the wedge spring to latch onto and stop the wedge from falling all the way out on removal.