Wild Inaccuracy with Pedersoli P53 Enfield.

[gemmer]

The cartridges in the photo are for .54 cal rifles.

 

[ResearchPress]

Individual pinpoint accuracy was not prioritized, just "combat accuracy", so in came the 1960s with a revival in interest of shooting Civil War arms, and we began to really start tweaking things.

With the establishment of the Volunteer Movement in the UK in 1859, and later that year the NRA(UK), target shooting with the Enfield rifle became a popular sport. Regional rifle associations also formed and target shooting as a sport with the Enfield rifle flourished through the 1860s, with matches being held generally out to 600 yards. Much of these events were for the P.53 Enfield with Government cartridges. Tools such as verniers to enable more precise elevation sight settings, or cartridges checkers to check the amount of powder in the cartridge evolved as the riflemen sought improved accuracy.

All this occurred in the UK of course during turbulent times in the US, and in the immediate post war years there was perhaps little interest in target shooting as a sport there with the military muzzle loading rifle.

With the establishment of the MLAGB in the 1950s the tradition of long range muzzle loading with the Enfield was revived, and still today the Association holds National Rifle Championship matches for Enfield rifles at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. Insofar as I am aware this seems to remain a peculiarly British sport. The modern revival in the US of shooting such arms seems to me to be mostly focussed on short range shooting such as the hugely popular N-SSA events.

David

 

[Stantheman86]

The closest I've seen to this , is my local gun club has a fanatical group of Old Heads that shoot Buffalo Matches, steel silhouettes out to 300 yards but other ranges go out much farther. No optics allowed, only period notch, peep or tang sights. Most guys shoot 45-70 Sharps with secret, meticulously worked up loads . Both smokeless and Black is used as propellant. They are super serious about these matches and they practice a lot. I asked if I could use a .58 Rifle-Musket and they were really excited to have me attempt the course with one, since a .58 muzzleloader fits into the "Period". All weapons and calibers must be single shot, 1900 or prior, original or repro of original designs. I haven't shot the course yet. I'd probably use Pritchetts since it's a timed course of fire.

 

[Stantheman86]

The cartridges in the photo are for .54 cal rifles.

Yes but the design can be easily adapted for .562 or .570 balls.

 

[ResearchPress]

...... steel silhouettes out to 300 yards but other ranges go out much farther. No optics allowed, only period notch, peep or tang sights....... I asked if I could use a .58 Rifle-Musket and they were really excited to have me attempt the course with one....

I shoot a lot of long range matches with muzzle loading match rifle and black powder cartridge rifle usually involving meticulous cleaning out between shots and fine vernier scale sights. Following this the 'simplicity' of the muzzle loading military rifle comes as a great joy, and the challenge coming in working out how far to 'aim-off' to allow for wind drift - 300 yards with these rifles is a nice distance. I'm sure you'll enjoy it and suprise your local club shooters.

David

 

[Smokestack]

Quite the discussion I helped stir up! All of the information here is fantastic. Thankyou.

Weather here is starting to ease up and I'll be taking my gun out to the range soon. Yesterday, I was finally able to get a machine shop to measure out the rifling and bore of my rifle, this is what they had given me :

Small Diameter (Land to Land) : 0.5787
Groove Depth : 0.0045
Large Diameter (Groove to groove) : 0.5877

So, turns out my barrel is a fair bit larger than .577, and may be the culprit as my ammunition was sized down to .576. I still need to remeasure my sized bullets to make sure what they were sitting at specifically. I'll update later when I have the time to do so.

In other news. I'm hoping to have my casting equipment either later this week or the next. I still have my pedersoli casting dies for that 650 grain shallow skirt bullet which i'll have to experiment with when I can.

Now, I have all of this other commercial mini ball ammunition which seemed to be giving me trouble. It's likely an alloy and a bit too firm for my gun. Is it possible for me to melt this stuff down and restore it to a pure soft lead? Not sure of the processes involved and any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Smokestack]

Bit of an update.

Got my casting equipment all in order, melted and cleaned up a ton of lead and got to casting. I made around 30 bullets of 620 gr shallow skirt bullets from my pedersoli mold and they actually shoot quite accurately from the rifled musket. Used 40 grains of Goex FFG and got about a 5 or so inch group at 50 yards, which is a massive improvement to what I was experiencing with the commercial minies from earlier.

Ended up finding another problem with the rifle in doing so. Turns out the rifles sights are far from being on point, and the gun shoots several inches to left. I have to use the edge of the rear notch to guess where the bullets will land. Did a bit of a drawing to give you a visual on that.

Was talking to some folks on the N-SSA forums and they had suggested I dovetail the front sight and install a brass insert. I just want to dig around and see what other opinions I can get to correct this issue before I start modifying this rifle.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

 

[nkbj]

For the original Prichett bullets, how much difference in diameter was there between the outside of the patched and lubed as-loaded ammo and the inside of the bore?

 

[Enfield58]

For the original Prichett bullets, how much difference in diameter was there between the outside of the patched and lubed as-loaded ammo and the inside of the bore?

The first bullets were swaged with a diameter of .568." Add .008" for the paper and it's going to be .576."

Later bullets were swaged with a diameter of .550" to accommodate for a heavily fouled barrel. Add .008" for the paper and the finished diameter is .558."

I'm toying with the idea of swagging my own Prichett bullets but am stumped on what I can use for the plug. I thought about clay but it is too inconsistent and, once dried, is prone to cracking.

I don't have a lathe. So making wooden plugs is out of the question. Besides, turning lots of little wooden plugs isn't my idea of fun when I could be shooting.

On another note, anyone shooting reproduction Enfields should verify their rifling twist and not take the word of the manufacturer. I have an Armi Sport 58 Enfield. They advertise a 1:48" twist. My 500 grain swaged Minies were not grouping very well. Once I determined that the twist was about 1:60" I could see why.

The longer bullets were not stabilizing in the slower twist rifling.

So I'm going back to the drawing board with a 460 grain bullet.

I share all that in case folks are having trouble getting the heavier bullets to group in their Enfield.

 

[Trot]

Yes, the sights on these rifles are often off. There aren't too many options, I ground off the post on one of mine and cut a slot in the base for a new one. The dovetail is really the best way to go, that way if you change bullets you can adjust your windage.

 

[nkbj]

The first bullets were swaged with a diameter of .568." Add .008" for the paper and it's going to be .576."

Later bullets were swaged with a diameter of .550" to accommodate for a heavily fouled barrel. Add .008" for the paper and the finished diameter is .558."

I'm toying with the idea of swagging my own Prichett bullets but am stumped on what I can use for the plug. I thought about clay but it is too inconsistent and, once dried, is prone to cracking.

I don't have a lathe. So making wooden plugs is out of the question. Besides, turning lots of little wooden plugs isn't my idea of fun when I could be shooting.

On another note, anyone shooting reproduction Enfields should verify their rifling twist and not take the word of the manufacturer. I have an Armi Sport 58 Enfield. They advertise a 1:48" twist. My 500 grain swaged Minies were not grouping very well. Once I determined that the twist was about 1:60" I could see why.

The longer bullets were not stabilizing in the slower twist rifling.

So I'm going back to the drawing board with a 460 grain bullet.

I share all that in case folks are having trouble getting the heavier bullets to group in their Enfield.

For the plugs, something in paste form that will harden after filling the cavity?
The actual shape of the cavity could be very important.

 

[Enfield58]

For the plugs, something in paste form that will harden after filling the cavity?
The actual shape of the cavity could be very important.

The plug needs to slightly larger than the cavity so when it is forced in it, the skirt will expand outward (along with the paper) to engage the rifling.

The original plugs were wood. I doubt that the paste, once dry, would withstand the pressure.

Nevertheless, what type of paste were you thinking of?

 

[n.h.schmidt]

I have done something like this some years ago. I used Bondo car body filler in the base of some 45 cal mini's I was shooting. That allowed for a higher charge without blowing the skirt off. That seemed to work ok.

 

[nkbj]

The plug needs to slightly larger than the cavity so when it is forced in it, the skirt will expand outward (along with the paper) to engage the rifling.

The original plugs were wood. I doubt that the paste, once dry, would withstand the pressure.

Nevertheless, what type of paste were you thinking of?

Modelling filler might work. Once upon a time I exchanged questions with a fellow in the UK and he said something used there was "milliput". The cavities being slightly tapered would take care of the size.
For smoothsided paper patched I'm planning on first going with gas pressure doing the work rather than a plug driven forwards.

 

[Enfield58]

Modelling filler might work. Once upon a time I exchanged questions with a fellow in the UK and he said something used there was "milliput". The cavities being slightly tapered would take care of the size.
For smoothsided paper patched I'm planning on first going with gas pressure doing the work rather than a plug driven forwards.

Here's the link to "Milliput."

Milliput - The epoxy putty with a thousand uses in modelling, DIY and industry

 

[Britsmoothy]

I wouldn't touch the sights until you get it shooting above pistol charges!

 

[Smokestack]

What charge should I try? Pedersoli's site says 90 grains is about max, and i've been told sticking around 40 is best. Looking at the site again it's suggesting a 60gr charge, so i might give that a go and see how it works.

 

[Britsmoothy]

What charge should I try? Pedersoli's site says 90 grains is about max, and i've been told sticking around 40 is best. Looking at the site again it's suggesting a 60gr charge, so i might give that a go and see how it works.

Put 90 in the thing. Stop worrying. I don't understand why muzzloader folk get so worried about good heavy charges in their rifles. I like it to many a novice welder! Many a novice welder is reluctant to turn the set up and are content to blob two pieces of material together in an unsatisfactory fashion...completely missing the sweet spot because of....drum roll....fear!

Ok, thin walled mini balls can get blown skirts from heavy charges but there are options, plug them, firewall them or thicken the skirt. It's not an excuse to pussyfoot with pistol rated charges! If you want to shoot pistol loads get a pistol.
Make that rifle sing my friend and report back

 

[dave951]

While 90g may be doable, you'll find best accuracy in minie guns between 40-70g. This depends on a number of factors, minie design, skirt thickness, powder granulation, caps, lube etc. Like I said before, there are a number of variables and controlling them is the key to accuracy. Plugging the base is just one more variable that has a number of subsets to deal with like plug size and material.

Know this as well, the limitations of real BP mean there is a point where all you get with more powder is recoil and unburnt powder blown out the barrel. That's a simple fact of life in these guns. Sometimes you can use the powder, but there is a limit.

Back to your sights. We in the NSSA are target shooters. I can tell you now, no matter how much powder you put in the gun or what you do, I think you're probably going to have to move that front post. Let's face it, even if it's a Pedersoli, it's not an original with original manufacturing processes and tolerances. With that said, I have seen different weight bullets shoot into different sight pictures. Out of my Colts, the Rapine Trashcan shoots to point of aim while the RCBS Hogdon shoots high to the right about 1 oclock.

One other variable here- your eyes and how you perceive the sights. It's entirely possible somebody else shooting your gun will hit an entirely different place.

Muzzleloader iron sights can be fun to deal with, especially the replica military issue ones.

 

[Britsmoothy]

While 90g may be doable, you'll find best accuracy in minie guns between 40-70g. This depends on a number of factors, minie design, skirt thickness, powder granulation, caps, lube etc. Like I said before, there are a number of variables and controlling them is the key to accuracy. Plugging the base is just one more variable that has a number of subsets to deal with like plug size and material.

Know this as well, the limitations of real BP mean there is a point where all you get with more powder is recoil and unburnt powder blown out the barrel. That's a simple fact of life in these guns. Sometimes you can use the powder, but there is a limit.

Back to your sights. We in the NSSA are target shooters. I can tell you now, no matter how much powder you put in the gun or what you do, I think you're probably going to have to move that front post. Let's face it, even if it's a Pedersoli, it's not an original with original manufacturing processes and tolerances. With that said, I have seen different weight bullets shoot into different sight pictures. Out of my Colts, the Rapine Trashcan shoots to point of aim while the RCBS Hogdon shoots high to the right about 1 oclock.

One other variable here- your eyes and how you perceive the sights. It's entirely possible somebody else shooting your gun will hit an entirely different place.

Muzzleloader iron sights can be fun to deal with, especially the replica military issue ones.

Inefficiency of heavy charges is not a reason to discount them. For instance the powder up against the bullet can end up acting as a firewall for a millisecond at peak pressure thus offering some protection whilst the minie seals.