Wilderness Rifle Works

[longhunter09]

Good morning. I recently bought what I believed was an unfired and unmarked Hatfield percussion rifle. It has a lot of the Hatfield (and Pedersoli Frontier rifle) hallmarks such as a barrel affixed by two screws through the ramrod thimbles, shape of the stock (channels along the forearms), and a straight 38.5 barrel.

There are no markings on the gun (barrel was removed) except for "50 Cal" on the right side of the barrel, right in front of the drum. I thought, perhaps, it was a de-farbed or some other early variant of a Hatfield, however there were enough differences that I have done some more digging. While the hammer is the same, it appears that the lock profile differs from other Hatfields. It almost looks like a Siler profile, but the rear is more rounded.

I found a picture of a Wilderness Rifle Works Hawken that sold on Guns International that has an identical lock, triggerguard, and butt. It is similarly unmarked.

What I've read is that WRW bought the Hatfield equipment when they finally folded, and this was the last American shot at building a Hatfield rifle, as Pedersoli began making the frontier rifle. I found a description of a WRW rifle called the Cumberland, that has identical specs, but I cant find any pictures online. Supposedly the company made their own barrels using the old Douglas equipment. It looks like WRW is now Deer Creek. Do you think it is worthwhile to contact them?

I've attached pictures of my rifle, and images from the Hawken from Guns International.

Can anyone provide further info about what I have? Decent rifle, or garbage? Any idea who made the lock?

Any info on this rifle will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[longhunter09]

I forgot to mention that it also has the same adjustable rear buckhorn sight, although you can't really see it in the picture I posted.

 

[TreeMan]

You might want to ask a moderator to move this to the percussion section. This section is for identifying original pre-1865 firearms not reproductions. You’ll probably get more responses there. Sorry I can’t help otherwise.

 

[longhunter09]

My apologies. I overlooked the description at the top of this forum until you mentioned it. I will see about getting it moved.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You have a very early version of what I think is actually a Hatfield. It is NOT a Pedersoli, even an early one, unless the Italian black powder proof marks were removed... and IF you go to that much trouble why then the hand stamping on the barrel just above the barrel drum ???

The lock on the Frontier is rather different than your lock. I've seen some older Frontier percussion locks, and they omit the wood screw at the front of the lock as does yours, but there are some other differences in your lock than the Frontier percussion.

Here is the current Pedersoli Frontier percussion lock and I've marked the differences. The Frontier lock currently is much more pointed at the back of the lock plate. The position of the second screw behind the hammer is much farther away, while yours is almost beneath the hammer. There is also a second hole forward of the drum on the lock plate that is not present in your lock, and at the bottom of your lock there is a section of the lower edge that is squared, while that does not show on the Pedersoli.

So the story is that Hatfield's original antique rifle was copied by Pedersoli, and that turned into the Frontier, which Hatfield ordered made with better wood and a machine blued barrel, and this was the "Hatfield" that folks saw a lot of in the 1990's. This is balderdash as the thimbles are clearly NOT pre 20th century, and the stock is also quite wrong for a 19th century piece.

HOWEVER, I think the truth is that Hatfield made their own small run of production rifles, and you have one of those now. This production rifle was then taken by Pedersoli and copied with a few modifications, and that is what became the Frontier... instead of a copy of an antique flintlock owned by the Hatfield family.

This would explain the lack of barrel markings, and why the stock is modern on both rifles as well as the simple brass tubes used to hold the barrel into the stock, YET, if you need to remove the barrel it only takes the removal of two barrel screws and the tang bolt.

I'm bettin' you have an original production Hatfield.

LD

 

[rafterob]

I like the theory of perhaps a Deer Creek rendition. Since the barrel/nipple bolster and adjustable sight look very much like the CVA products that they acquired. Also Deer Creek at one time made their own barrels to fit out the parts they had. The simple .50 cal stamping is how their barrels were marked, I have a Mountain Rifle barrel like that. I had not previously heard that they had purchased the Hatfield assets, but that would fit in with their business model. I know they had CVA and Mowrey.

 

[longhunter09]

You have a very early version of what I think is actually a Hatfield. It is NOT a Pedersoli, even an early one, unless the Italian black powder proof marks were removed... and IF you go to that much trouble why then the hand stamping on the barrel just above the barrel drum ???

The lock on the Frontier is rather different than your lock. I've seen some older Frontier percussion locks, and they omit the wood screw at the front of the lock as does yours, but there are some other differences in your lock than the Frontier percussion.

Here is the current Pedersoli Frontier percussion lock and I've marked the differences. The Frontier lock currently is much more pointed at the back of the lock plate. The position of the second screw behind the hammer is much farther away, while yours is almost beneath the hammer. There is also a second hole forward of the drum on the lock plate that is not present in your lock, and at the bottom of your lock there is a section of the lower edge that is squared, while that does not show on the Pedersoli.

View attachment 130899
So the story is that Hatfield's original antique rifle was copied by Pedersoli, and that turned into the Frontier, which Hatfield ordered made with better wood and a machine blued barrel, and this was the "Hatfield" that folks saw a lot of in the 1990's. This is balderdash as the thimbles are clearly NOT pre 20th century, and the stock is also quite wrong for a 19th century piece.

HOWEVER, I think the truth is that Hatfield made their own small run of production rifles, and you have one of those now. This production rifle was then taken by Pedersoli and copied with a few modifications, and that is what became the Frontier... instead of a copy of an antique flintlock owned by the Hatfield family.

This would explain the lack of barrel markings, and why the stock is modern on both rifles as well as the simple brass tubes used to hold the barrel into the stock, YET, if you need to remove the barrel it only takes the removal of two barrel screws and the tang bolt.

I'm bettin' you have an original production Hatfield.

LD

Thank you for the information! It definitely seems to be murky to find much info between the myriad variations of Hatfields and the early Pedersoli Frontiers, made even murkier by the fact that supposedly some of the late model Hatfields were made using Pedersoli components.

To throw another wrench into it, it looks like there was an iteration of Hatfields made by a company called Missouri River Rifle Works that were still marked Hatfield. And an even later model made by Wilderness Rifle Works (that became Deer Creek) that omitted the Hatfield markings and was unaffiliated with Hatfield. I think there was even a Las Vegas company making a Hatfield copy with a similar barrel attachment method. Plus I have heard there were various Hatfields that were semi-customized by local shops, or by Hatfield themselves.

What made me think WRW was, in addition to the differences you indicated between this lock and the Frontier/Hatfield lock, is that mine doesn't have the raised metal on the edge of the plate between the hammer and drum.

I may never learn the exact pedigree of this rifle, but I'll enjoy it for what it is: A rather oddball but decent American made production rifle.

Thanks again!

 

[longhunter09]

I like the theory of perhaps a Deer Creek rendition. Since the barrel/nipple bolster and adjustable sight look very much like the CVA products that they acquired. Also Deer Creek at one time made their own barrels to fit out the parts they had. The simple .50 cal stamping is how their barrels were marked, I have a Mountain Rifle barrel like that. I had not previously heard that they had purchased the Hatfield assets, but that would fit in with their business model. I know they had CVA and Mowrey.

Thanks for the info! I emailed Deer Creek to see if they could shed some light on it. Supposedly they bought the Douglas Co. barrel making equipment?

 

[scott-wv]

You are mostly correct in your identification. It looks to be a Wilderness Rifle Works Mountaineer rifle that was made in the early 90's in Waldron IN by Deer Creek and Mountain State Muzzleloading Supplies.
In the late 80's early 90's Ted Hatfield wanted to have his rifles made in the US from American parts so he had Erwin Fagel and Ed Cain Redesign new parts for it. Larry Zornes made new molds for the lock, butt plate and trigger guard. The barrels where made by Deer Creek and where stamped with only the caliber in front of the drum. When Hatfield stopped ordering the guns, Deer Creek and MSM manufactured and marketed the rifles under the WRW brand name, since Hatfield did not own the molds.
Your rifle look to be from that time period. Locks where made by Zornes, barrels by Deer Creek, triggers by MSM.
The rifles where good shooters, made with quality parts(for a semi production rifle). If you need lock screws for it, I have several 1000's of them as well as some replacement thimbles.

Good shooting
Scott-WV

 

[rafterob]

Scott-wv, thanks for filling in that bit of History. Curious to see if the OP gets a reply from Deer Creek. I don't know if the current owners are descendants of the original owner or not related. But they are certainly a younger generation and may not have the history.

 

[UndeadPoet]

Can anyone provide further info about what I have? Decent rifle, or garbage?

If it is anything like the Pedersoli Blue Ridge/Frontier, it is definitely not garbage. They may not be everybody’s cup of tea, but they are well-built rifles. Just my two cents…

 

[scott-wv]

Scott-wv, thanks for filling in that bit of History. Curious to see if the OP gets a reply from Deer Creek. I don't know if the current owners are descendants of the original owner or not related. But they are certainly a younger generation and may not have the history.

They are not related, but bought it from Erwin Fagel when he retired.

 

[rafterob]

I have been buying from Deer Creek since back in the 80's, always had good service and reasonable pricing. They were late to the online sales scene but the new owners have taken care of that. Still, a phone call will get you things that may not be on their online catalog so don't hesitate to call them.

 

[longhunter09]

You are mostly correct in your identification. It looks to be a Wilderness Rifle Works Mountaineer rifle that was made in the early 90's in Waldron IN by Deer Creek and Mountain State Muzzleloading Supplies.
In the late 80's early 90's Ted Hatfield wanted to have his rifles made in the US from American parts so he had Erwin Fagel and Ed Cain Redesign new parts for it. Larry Zornes made new molds for the lock, butt plate and trigger guard. The barrels where made by Deer Creek and where stamped with only the caliber in front of the drum. When Hatfield stopped ordering the guns, Deer Creek and MSM manufactured and marketed the rifles under the WRW brand name, since Hatfield did not own the molds.
Your rifle look to be from that time period. Locks where made by Zornes, barrels by Deer Creek, triggers by MSM.
The rifles where good shooters, made with quality parts(for a semi production rifle). If you need lock screws for it, I have several 1000's of them as well as some replacement thimbles.

Good shooting
Scott-WV

Thank you, Scott! That is a ton of great information. Glad to know I am on the right track with this. There certainly isn't much information online, and you really helped fill in the gaps. Regardless, my order of powder just came in, so if the weather (and my kids) cooperates I should be able to shoot it this weekend. It is unfired, so I can't wait to see how it shoots!

 

[Y2GREY]

Sorry if I came late to this party. I have a very similar rifle to yours. Mine is a .50 cal MRRW Hatfield flintlock. The stock on both our rifles differs from the traditional Hatfield in the comb and wrist area. The lock plate is stamped Hatfield but not "warrented" The thimbles are attached through the stock to the barrel with allen head screws rather than slots. The muzzle sticks out 1/2-3/4 inch from the stock Pictures are attached.

 

[Y2GREY]

Here are some photos of my WRW Mountain Rifle. Of note is that it is not stamped Hatfield on the lock plate. It is #24 according to the numbers on the lock, stock and barrel

 

[BigSkyRambler]

I dumped the photos, but I sold a similar rifle some months back. Spittin' image of a Hatfield, but totally unmarked except .50 CAL on barrel.

 

[scott-wv]

Here are some photos of my WRW Mountain Rifle. Of note is that it is not stamped Hatfield on the lock plate. It is #24 according to the numbers on the lock, stock and barrel

From your photos it looks like you have a WRW Elk Hunter half stock rifle.