Will a flintlock stop a bear?

[BrownBear]

Probably the most complete accounting of grizzly bears and flintlocks is found in the journals of Lewis and Clark. They shot and killed plenty and wounded some too. Of course success often involved several guns, lots of shots and a fair bit of climbing trees and running around with hair on fire.

 

[RugerDog]

One of the stories on the show concerned a guy who was bowhunting with his son. He managed to get off an arrow, that seemed to have no effect at stopping the bear's attack. After a while, the bear just started to walk away and collapsed - the broadhead was right in his heart... took him a long time to bleed out.

As with most things, shot placement would be key.

 

[BadHorse]

No, a flintlock muzzleloader will not stop a grizzly bear. The stories of the rocky mountain trappers are replete with many stories of bear maulings after the trappers shot them; i.e., Hugh Glass. The trappers went out of their way to make sport of shooting a "silver bear" and they frequently ended up running for their lives!

oh really, check your wikipedia on this guy "william f holcomb" who hunted and killed many grizz with his 50 cal hawkens rifle. might want to check your facts before saying no way

 

[necchi]

Swampy said it "circumstance" is a big part of it.
If your hunting then perhaps a very good chance.

If your being attacked, as the OP eluded to, then I'd hafta come up with a "it might kill the bear, but not before you recieve some serious hurtin",,

She bear w/cub's, wounded P.O.'ed bear, all a place I wouldn't want to find my self

 

[nkbj]

This thread reminds me of the old tale about the so very British colonel that was going to slay a lion with a .303. I believe the punch line was something to the effect of "Yes Colonel, it will kill him. But, will it stop him?"
I'd just as soon let the colonel find out.

 

[hanshi]

If they shot from only 12 feet that bear was stopped dead whether he knew it or not. Twelve feet is about 1/10 second from having lunch. I'd guess that the first couple of slugs killed him and everything after was just "Hail Mary". The .40sp probably barely (ahem!) penetrated the epidermis.

 

[hanshi]

Jean, of course you know I was talking not about you hunting the bear but about the bear hunting you. When that furry manhole lined with teeth is fogging your glasses, only one thing will guarantee you being home for supper; a brain or spinal cord shot. You're right; I don't know how to hunt bears and have never done so. I've been told and have read that it's best to shoot and break the front shoulder as that makes the critter hard to get along. I've also read (grizzlies) that the distance (of the shot) should be fairly close as the last thing in the world you want wounded and in the bush-other than maybe a T-Rex...just maybe-is a griz plotting revenge :shake:. I don't know first hand; just always "heard". :idunno:

I do know there's a world of difference between Blacks and Grizzlies; grizzlies mostly like to kick butt (they're rough boys, though) while blacks most likely will eat you (lousy second choice, if you want my perspective on it. Though I hunt deer in black bear habitat, I don't give it a second thought-I know, I know, I know. If I hunted in ol' griz habitat I'd be sweating at 20 below. Those boogers can be QUIET! I know enough to know as long as I don't shoot at one he probably won't bother me; if he does it anyway, well, sometimes ya' just gotta feed the wildlife .

 

[dlimoges]

Read your Lewis & Clark history .They used 54 cal flint locks and thought they could stop any thing with them.After about three close calls and kills they decided that griz should not be left alone.

 

[jbg]

All I can say is if anyone plans on hunting Grizzly or Brown Beares with a flintock I would highly recommend filing off the front sight.

 

[Dave K]

To no one in particular. I have bowhunted black bear with a bow. They don't take allot of killing to put one down. I didn't say stopping, I said killing. A well placed arrow had mine down inside of 60yds. Other bowhunters in camp had the very same experience. But poor shot placement though will not do hunter or hunted any favors. Personally, I feel better hunting a bear with a bow then a gun. There is no noise, so they don't know where it came from and where to find their attacker. JMHO :surrender: Now to stop one, that is another story all together. When your life relies on seconds, there are way to many seconds between a good hit and a stopped bear.

 

[tg]

"No, a flintlock muzzleloader will not stop a grizzly bear"

Some of the flinlocks made for the African hunts would be quite enough to drop a Brown bear, 2 bore and 4 bore guns have an unbelievable potential stopping power.

 

[David W.]

A muzzleloader is capable of killing a G-bear in some cases, but I personally would not want to find out. If I were surprised, I would lay down and play dead. I understand they MAY not attack if they think you are dead.

I have shot deer, exploding the heart and lungs and still had them run until the brain ran out of oxygen.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You just gotta time it right. The ball, blast, smoke and flash (and the expanding gas introduced under the bear's chest skin) from just a few feet away will disorient him long enough for you to get away - like a squid and ink.

Or, just wound your partner in the leg and run like stink.

Seriously, will a muzzleloader stop a large bear? Sure, if it is enough of a muzzleloader. Hope I never have to find out. Just as a single .416 Rigby or a .404 Jeffery with a soft-nose bullet likely would have stopped it as well if it had been among those 30 some 9mm and .40 cal. pistol shots the game officers were lobbing.

I am reminded of a story (can't remember the author) who was handed a four-bore m/l rifle and he was told it would kill a tiger most effectively. He shot it and said "I'm sure it would if he was on the same end I just was."

 

[rabjr]

I'm sure some people are talking black bear and some Grizz, not sure everyone is on the same page here, regardless if surprised you are in serious trouble and very few of us have the calmness to make one shot count in that situation.

Now forgetting about being surprised and actually hunting either bear. If I remember what I read about bear oil, it only had a good 40 to 50 year commercial run because we pretty much eraticated the bears from most areas by then, yes I'm sure most were black bears but there were a few Grizz in there too. All this by the mid 1800's. so more than one have been taken with a flintlock.

 

[BadHorse]

I'm sure some people are talking black bear and some Grizz, not sure everyone is on the same page here, regardless if surprised you are in serious trouble and very few of us have the calmness to make one shot count in that situation.

Now forgetting about being surprised and actually hunting either bear. If I remember what I read about bear oil, it only had a good 40 to 50 year commercial run because we pretty much eraticated the bears from most areas by then, yes I'm sure most were black bears but there were a few Grizz in there too. All this by the mid 1800's. so more than one have been taken with a flintlock.

i know where i live, "big bear california" Grizz was hunted from 1860 to about 1900. hence the name big bear. and a lot of those Grizz were taken with billy holcombs 50 cal hawkens. part of how ole billy made his living was hunting Grizz. apparently grizz is good eating. and sure it makes some difference whether your hunting the bear, or being hunted by the bear. however couple things about bears
1 they would rather leave you alone
2 tend not to be agressive towards people(unless somethings wrong)
3 and this is my favorite,, are very scared of dogs. which is why i have a well trained trail/hunting dog.

i really do not understand why some people think these rifles that we love so much wont/cant stop big game. and this has become a bit of a pet peeve of mine, on a couple other forums (which i wont name here) there is one guy in particular that likes to sound like some kind of guru with front stuffers, and he likes to say that past 50 yards they wont penetrate. which i dont understand, i mean there are all kinds of recorded shots by buffalow hunters and such at 200+ yards. i mean think about it were talking about a 200 grain patched round ball traveling at 2100 ft per second. that matches up pretty darned good with a lot of modern hunting loads.

 

[rabjr]

I'm sure some people are talking black bear and some Grizz, not sure everyone is on the same page here, regardless if surprised you are in serious trouble and very few of us have the calmness to make one shot count in that situation.

Now forgetting about being surprised and actually hunting either bear. If I remember what I read about bear oil, it only had a good 40 to 50 year commercial run because we pretty much eraticated the bears from most areas by then, yes I'm sure most were black bears but there were a few Grizz in there too. All this by the mid 1800's. so more than one have been taken with a flintlock.

i know where i live, "big bear california" Grizz was hunted from 1860 to about 1900. hence the name big bear. and a lot of those Grizz were taken with billy holcombs 50 cal hawkens. part of how ole billy made his living was hunting Grizz. apparently grizz is good eating. and sure it makes some difference whether your hunting the bear, or being hunted by the bear. however couple things about bears
1 they would rather leave you alone
2 tend not to be agressive towards people(unless somethings wrong)
3 and this is my favorite,, are very scared of dogs. which is why i have a well trained trail/hunting dog.

i really do not understand why some people think these rifles that we love so much wont/cant stop big game. and this has become a bit of a pet peeve of mine, on a couple other forums (which i wont name here) there is one guy in particular that likes to sound like some kind of guru with front stuffers, and he likes to say that past 50 yards they wont penetrate. which i dont understand, i mean there are all kinds of recorded shots by buffalow hunters and such at 200+ yards. i mean think about it were talking about a 200 grain patched round ball traveling at 2100 ft per second. that matches up pretty darned good with a lot of modern hunting loads.

Whats all this got to do with a surprised Flintlock hunter which was the original question?

 

[Dphar]

i know where i live, "big bear california" Grizz was hunted from 1860 to about 1900. hence the name big bear. and a lot of those Grizz were taken with billy holcombs 50 cal hawkens. part of how ole billy made his living was hunting Grizz. apparently grizz is good eating. and sure it makes some difference whether your hunting the bear, or being hunted by the bear. however couple things about bears
1 they would rather leave you alone
2 tend not to be agressive towards people(unless somethings wrong)
3 and this is my favorite,, are very scared of dogs. which is why i have a well trained trail/hunting dog.

i really do not understand why some people think these rifles that we love so much wont/cant stop big game. and this has become a bit of a pet peeve of mine, on a couple other forums (which i wont name here) there is one guy in particular that likes to sound like some kind of guru with front stuffers, and he likes to say that past 50 yards they wont penetrate. which i dont understand, i mean there are all kinds of recorded shots by buffalow hunters and such at 200+ yards. i mean think about it were talking about a 200 grain patched round ball traveling at 2100 ft per second. that matches up pretty darned good with a lot of modern hunting loads.

As I previously stated there is a difference between stopping and killing. Read Lewis and Clarks Journal entries about shooting Gbears then think about "stopping" as opposed to "killing" and how long some bears lived after being shot through the lungs, hey were really surprised at how tough the bears were. They also did a lot of panic running at times after shooting a Gbear.

Not everyone that hunted Grizzlies for fun or profit survived. William Sublette's younger brother hunted CA Gbears and got mauled twice, the second time was fatal. I think its here asoac.org/bulletins/87_burke_hawken.pdf
in this PDF file.

There is no way I would take a dog into Gbear country for protection. It takes a pretty savvy dog (actually a pack) to hunt/confront bears with any success. One dog is unlikely to survive. This based on stories of my family hunting the lowly black bear with dogs in 19th century Arkansas. Considering the Gbears around here deal with wolves on a regular basis I would not count on the dog to do anything but serve as a way to irritate the bear.

You don't want your dog bringing a Gbear back to you. My grandfather had this experience with cougars when as a boy he decided to go **** hunting by himself. Not fun when you got 2 cougars and only a ML rifle and an old **** dog on a leash, the younger dogs ran past him and went home, the old dog stopped and he put a leash on him. Kept his back to a tree till sunup, afraid to shoot his one shot.

Bears, black or brown USUALLY leave people alone/avoid them. But I often hunt in an area where the gov't likes to drop off "problem" Gbears from the nearby National Park. So one cannot rely on stumbling on a bear that fears or even respects humans. You might find one that has decided that he has had enough traps and needles and will jump the next pest he finds in the woods. So betting my life the bear is going to be afraid of me is silly.
Bears on gut piles/kills are not something you want to encounter. They will surely protect it.
So far as stopping animals the best read concerning this is probably Jame Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" from the 1850s-60s. Its available on the WWW as a downloadable file IIRC. The English considered the 54 (32 bore)to be suitable only as a light deer rifle. Both Ruxton (24 bore) and Stewart (20 bore) used larger rifles during their time in the American West.

Dan

 

[Celt5494]

I've seen people with multiple 7.62 rifle round hits mainly to their upper torsos who have survived. I have seen people with gunshot wounds to the brain who have survived. I've also seen one hit with a .22 kill a man instantly where he stood. Now I do realize a bear is not a human, simply more muscle and bone mass. What I am trying to say is it is shot placement. Anantomy is anatomy and if you stop motor nerve function or stop oxygen to the brain your body cannot function and will shut down.

Of couse a .54 round ball would kill a grizzly however if that first round missed it's intended mark and the noise and strike from the bullet didn't spook the bear you might be in for a wild ride on the downhill curve. You just wouldn't have the time for a reload to try again in that scenario. That's why most of the folks who hunt dangerous game carry a very large caliber handgun as well as having a backup shooter or two in case things do go wrong. As much as I respect the art of the hunt I think things are sometimes better left alone and I just rather enjoy watching the bears from a distance doing what bears do.

 

[Robby]

That was interesting Dan! It makes me wonder about another aspect of Gbears and intentionally hunting them. I can't remember who I was talking to about this, but as it was related to me. It is not uncommon for hunters, on guided hunts, at that moment of truth, to refuse to shoot. Weather, at that moment they decide they are under gunned or any number of different reasons, I don't know. Maybe its BS. Any outfitters out there?
My bear gun. It doesn't shoulder well, but it has a two inch bore.

 

[jethro224]

"...it was a good gun and kilt the bar that kilt me." :wink: