Wilson Trade Gun

[akapennypincher]

Anyone supply me with a link so I can read up on the history of a Wilson Trade Gun like the Caywood's build.... :thumbsup:

 

Don't have a link, but you can find info about this and other trade guns in Hamilton's book on same. The Wilson's Chief gun was made in England to look like the 18th century French hunting guns popular amongst the Indians and gussied up with a little extra brass, as presentations or high buck trade items.

 

[Rebel]

There is one for sale right now on either auction arms or gunbroker. http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=29151740

 

[dlemaster]

I just started one with a Caywood lock and a 48" 20 gauge Getz barrel and hand forged trigger guard and a hand made brass butt plate. I had the opportunity to handle two originals and have Hamilton's book. These are very light and easy to handle. I like the idea of being able to use both shot and round ball in the same gun.

Regards, Dvae

 

You really need to read Hamilton as Mike recommended.

There were some unique details on the Wilson guns that most builders either leave off or cannot include.

Most had very slim barrels (less than an inch at the breech)

they had rear sights, making them technically what we would call "smoothrifles".

 

I must correct the above post.

My memory was one page off in the Hamilton book.

I was desctibing the TR and Yuchi Townsite guns which have slinder barrels and rear sights.

The Wilson Chiefs' gun is 1 3/8" at the breech and has no rear sight that I noticed.

:redface::sorry: :redface:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yup. And that trade gun on[url] gunbroker.com[/url] weighs 11 pounds.
I seriously doubt if any original Wilson came anywhere near that.

 

[eat moose meat]

Just picked up a Caywood wilson trade gun last weekend. Came with a 54 rifled barrel along with the smoothbore barrel.

 

[tg]

"they had rear sights, making them technically what we would call "smoothrifles". "

a fowler or fusil or trade gun does not become a "smoothrifle" just because it has a rear sight, the general architecture and furniture needs to be of the rifle type as well.

 

[Okwaho]

TG is correct. the fact that a gun lacks rifling does not make it per se a smooth rifle.Smooth rifles which by the way made up about 45 % of early American rifles were rifles in every sense of the word other than not having rifling. They had thick walled barrels,cheek pieces,boxes,front and rear sights,and usually had relief carving.American made fowling pieces prior to the Revolution were quite rare in that up to that time the English fowlers were the best available and in fact the first American maker to advertise fowling pieces was not until 1773 in the Pennsylvania Gazette,Henry J Kaufman,"The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" PP 102-03.Fusils of French origin were not so named because they were smoothbore.The term fusil{pronounced fu-zee} which derives from the Italian term fucile{meaning flint} was used by the French to denote a flint weapon rather than a matchlock which was referred to as a mousquet and a fowling piece as used by the English denoted a weapon used for the taking of fowls.The English and later the Americans borrowed the term fusil and used it to denote a light musket.

As I stated above almost half of early American long rifles were smooth bored when originally made although many have argued that rifles with smooth bore barrels were either shot out or later reamed[url] out.In[/url] fact a smooth rifle with a tightly patched ball is just as accurate as a rifle with a rifled bore up to about 70 yards.I once went through "Rifles of Colonial America" by George Shumway and took the first 50 American rifles and the ratio of rifled barrels was 55% rifled and 45% smooth.There is one rifle by J P Beck which is straight rifled,that is to say that there is no twist to the rifling. Straight rifling is extremely rare in early American long rifles and is a holdover from early German guns of the 17th century.
Tom Patton

 

Tom, I agree with everything you said until you got to the part about the smooth rifle being as accurate as a rifle out to 70 yds. This is not my experience. Perhaps the occasional one will be. In fact, I have not seen one that would match a rifle at 50 yds. Many certainly have adequate accuracy at 50 yds--at least pie plate--and some will group pretty good. I have not yet seen one that would group as well as a good rifle. Your experience is probably wider than mine, so I will yield to it, but I'd like to see one! :m2c:

 

[[email protected]]

I sure would like to have one !

**** WV SCROUNGER ***

 

[akapennypincher]

Tom, I agree with everything you said until you got to the part about the smooth rifle being as accurate as a rifle out to 70 yds. This is not my experience. Perhaps the occasional one will be. In fact, I have not seen one that would match a rifle at 50 yds. Many certainly have adequate accuracy at 50 yds--at least pie plate--and some will group pretty good. I have not yet seen one that would group as well as a good rifle. Your experience is probably wider than mine, so I will yield to it, but I'd like to see one! :m2c:

Accuracy is a VERY INTERESTING SUBJECT, as I have Volunteered as a Safety Officer at a Local Shooting Range I see it all weekly.

Accuracy with Muzzle Loader is frequently Talking about. But few take the REAL TIME to check out their Muzzle Loaders for REAL ACCURACY.

Things that need to be done before shooting for accuracy are easily accomplished. But you need a Very Accurate Powder Scale. A Scale that will Measure both Powder & Balls Weight with in 1/100 of a Grain.

Than you all need to find 5 or 10 Round Ball they weight with in 10/100th of a Grain, and also measure out 5 or 10 Powder Charges that weight with in 5/100 of a Grain.

Than you know for sure you are controlling TWO FACTORS. That being Ball Weight & Weight of Powder Charge.

Now the problem come in Sight Picture, as with Smoothbores you only have a Front Sight, and with Traditional Rifles you have Open Sights. So it is VERY DIFFICULT to know 100% for sure that you have the SAME SIGHT PICTURE for each your 3, 5, or 10 TEST SHOTS.

TRIGGER PULL, FLINTCHING, and a Few More factors could confuse the Mix. But like I said if you have Powder Charges & Ball of Equal Weight you control Two of the Factors that control Accuracy of Muzzle Loaders.

:thumbsup:Good Luck

 

[Okwaho]

Mike, I am not a hunter or a target marksman but rather a truly dedicated plinker and that statement probably should have been more like 50 yards.I was using a bunch of posts from those who hunt with smoothbore guns and 50-70 yards seemed to be a consensus.When I resume shooting this spring{after a long hiatus} with two.62 cal.smoothbore guns,an English fowler and a French fusil and can compare with my .62 cal Marshall rifled gun maybe I can see for myself.I do think,however,that with as many smooth rifles as there were before about 1789{the limit of my scan}they had to be pretty accurate for as many to have been made over a 35 +/- year period before then.I say 35 because,although the Schreit rifle dated 1761 is the earliest dated gun,that there are a good many guns that can be dated into the 1750's and possibly the 1740's.Additionally we can't ignore the fact that there were guns made in the 18th century with straight rifling as per the J P Beck rifle No.98 in Shumway.
Tom Patton

 

Tom, I am quite sure that a well made smoothbore is adequately accurate for most of the old timer's needs. They are versatile in that you can shoot shot, of course, as well as a single ball. Nearly all early accounts I have seen indicate that hunters got a lot closer to their game than we moderns typically do before shooting. They typically ran game with dogs and cornered it, and so on. Accuracy beyond 50 yds was not needed by most. I personally think a lot of the old smooth rifles were originally rifled and "smoothed out" later in life, but I know many experts today think that many were always smooth (made that way). A PA farmer would probably have more use for a smoothie than a rifle. I know a lot of the old hill people (like my own Ozark family)switched to single shot shotguns from their hog rifles when the cartridge guns took over. You can do it all with a smoothie--except gauruntee a bullseye at 100yds.