Wogdon's bent barrels

[TFoley]

Add to that that 'taking time to aim' was considered to be very bad form, hence the instinctive pointing property of a well-designed duelling pistol.

tac

 

[azmntman]

There is a pair for sale on GB. One of ya outta buy em and test this theory and report back!

 

[TFoley]

Two problems here.

1. In UK, if you want to shoot an antique firearm of any kind, it has to be on your firearm certificate. That can take up to 42 weeks if you live in Essex.

2. Lack of funds for such expensive toys. I'd rather be able to eat, TBH.

tac

 

[curator]

Most handguns are designed to point the bore below the intended point of impact. Look at the front sights on a target pistol; it will be taller than the rear sight. This is due to Newton's 3rd law of motion. (equal and opposite reaction) A pistol having the barrel positioned above the grip will have the muzzle move upward from recoil in response to the bullet moving down the barrel. Heavier bullets will create more muzzle rise before the bullet leaves the barrel.

 

[pargent]

You guys all should know better

 

[George]

It's hard to get a good view from the right angle, but if you can find slow motion video of bullets exiting the muzzle it seems pretty clear the muzzle doesn't move upward until the bullet has already left the barrel. This one is smokeless, but it is at 73,000 frames per second and straight from the side of the muzzle, seems to show just that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA

Spence

 

[pargent]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :thumbsup:

 

[pargent]

In this age of information stupid is a choice !

 

[biliff]

You'll also note the slow motion starts with the hammer already down so it's kind of hard to tell if there's any muzzle rise or not since the time of primer ignition doesn't appear to be captured in this film.

That and you're suspending Newton's third law of motion.

Given the small increments used in sight adjustment, do you really thing you're going to pick it up by eyeballing the film?

 

[George]

I wouldn't want to insult Newton, for sure. I'm a big fan of his. I have no doubt the equal and opposite reaction occurs, but I believe it's possible the gun travels opposite to the direction of the bullet, in other words backward, first, as you would expect, and the muzzle only begins to move upward as a result of a pivoting action caused by the shape of the gun. After all, Newton does require an opposite reaction, and the bullet isn't traveling downward as it moves through the barrel.

But that's just armchair physics, subject to correction.

Does the third law require an upward movement?

Spence

 

[biliff]

Now I think you're getting into conservation of angular momentum, which is getting way outside my wheelhouse. Does bring up the interesting phenomenon of the gun rotating around the bullet. Same reason helicopters need tail rotors. Guess if we really measured it, we'd find the sights also need to be offset from true to compensate for that as well.

I need a beer.

 

[George]

Have one for me. Until a better explanation comes along, I'll take my Dad's advice to believe nothing of what I read and half of what I see, assume I'm no more than half right about what I think I see on that video. That'll keep me happy, it's well above average. :haha:

Spence

 

[Mike M.]

You've also got the movement of the lockwork, which imparts movement to the gun. There's a reason why the underhammers are dominating MLAIC competition these days.

 

[smoothshooter]

Or more to the point, has anyone checked a Wogdon dueller to see if it was actually bent.

Should be relatively easy to determine with a straight edge, and some good light.
It would be easier to get a Wogdon Dueller owner to let someone to do the check mentioned above than permission to shoot it.

 

[curator]

Spence10,

The upward motion of the muzzle as the bullet moves down the barrel is a result of the distance the bore over the grip. Semi-autos such as in the video have less distance between bore and grip. Revolvers have more. Smokeless powder has less weight than black powder as well and contributes less to muzzle rise. A simple measurement of the front and rear sights over the bore center line on high power revolvers will demonstrate this principal. Also, light weight bullets will shoot to a lower POI than heavy ones. High velocity, light weight bullets may result in minimal muzzle rise where lower velocity heavy-weight bullets will shoot noticeably higher POI compared to sight picture at handgun ranges. This is all due to Mr. Newton's law.

 

[George]

You may be right, but it has never fit together that way for me.

If you could suspend just a completely symmetrical loaded barrel in the air and fire it, would the muzzle move upward? Newton said opposite and equal, which in that case would be along the line of bore and opposite to the direction of the bullet's movement, so where would the force to make the muzzle move upward come from?

Spence

 

[hawkeye2]

The barrel is pushed straight back by the bullet as it leaves the bore. The shooter's grip is below the centerline of the bore and the distance form the bore centerline to the center of resistance, the shooter's grip, acts as a lever with the barrel rotating around the center of resistance, again the shooter's grip, so the barrel goes up (as it comes back) and what curator says is very true. An example of what he says is that the front sight on one of my 4 3/4" Single Action Armies is almost 3/16" higher than the top of the notch in the frame to compensate for the rotation of the firearm in recoil. I could check my S&W .41 Mag but I'm willing to bet that the difference in height is even greater for that revolver and it's a tack driver.

The above is an over simplification as the gun first forces the soft tissue aside and then takes up any slack (limp grip, etc.) before it encounters enough resistance to begin it's rotation. This also explains why any variation in the shooters grip including it's rigidity has such a big change in the point of impact.

 

[George]

I agree with your description of the sequence, when the pistol is fired it moves backward until it meets resistance and the offset leverage rotates it upward.

Now, the crucial question is obviously whether the bullet leaves the barrel while the gun is moving straight backward and before it encounters that resistance which causes it to pivot upward.

Spence

 

[curator]

Hawkeye2 has the concept down correctly. There are several factors that include the rigidity of the grip by the shooter, and where the shooter places the hand(s) that effect the muzzle flip. Suspended by wires the pistol would recoil straight back. Learning to grip a handgun consistently is a major factor in shooting accurately.

 

[George]

Learning to grip a handgun consistently is a major factor in shooting accurately.

I know about pistol shooting.

My point, which I'm not sure I'm getting across, is that the barrel may move straight backward for a long enough time that the bullet clears the barrel before the grip hits resistance and flips the muzzle upward.

Spence