Won't cock

[mushka]

Was going to shoot my 54 cal flintlock Sunday coming up so went to rag it off and clean barrel again. Tried to put the cock on half cock and it wouldn't catch, or stay. Tried to full cock the gun, same thing. Won't half cock or cock completely. I am not a gun plumber and know less about muzzle loader parts than I do about moon rockets.
Anybody got any ideas what might the trouble be? It's a well built rifle by a good unknown builder, and uses a Siler lock I think. Even the trigger guard looks like it will be troublesome to get off. I can see one screw toward the butt but no other screws. There is a peg that the guard itself in place. Frankly I am hesitant to do much with more disassembly than taking the lock off the rifle. In the recent past I even had to ask this board how to get the lock off. Need some knowledge.

 

[Trot]

Try loosening the lock screws a little, the lock may be pulled in too tight binding it up. If that fails, take the lock out and see if it holds at half and full cock.

 

[biliff]

Besides the lock binding, the bridle screws may be overtightened causing the tumbler to bind, or the sear spring could be broken/missing, sear could be broken. Does the gun have set triggers?

 

[ThumperJones]

It could have some grease on the tumbler or whatnot that has gummed up over time. If it worked fine, you put it in the safe, and now took it out and it doesn't, that would be my guess.

 

[mushka]

I did take the lock out and brushed and squirted break free all over it to maybe loosen some crud. It won't stay at half cock or cocked out of the rifle either. bliff mentioned bridle screws, I don't know what a bridle or the screw that goes with it is . Totally ignorant about what makes them tick. Is there a site with all the parts of a flint lock with the terms?

 

[olskool]

the small screw between the triggers or trigger, turn it counter clock wise a turn and see what happens,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[biliff]

Totally ignorant about what makes them tick. Is there a site with all the parts of a flint lock with the terms?

https://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?op...:parts-diagram&catid=41:information&Itemid=68

If it's not working out of the gun, then its something to do with the tumbler, sear or sear spring. Something is keeping the sear from engaging the notches in the tumbler.

 

[tenngun]

Look up on you tube Townsend videos flintlock rifle break down and cleaning, he shows lock care well.
When you look at your lock you will see a big lever sticking out at 90 degrees. That’s the sear, and is the thingy that triggers the lock. On top of it you will see a small spring that pushes it down.
The Hammer has a rotating thing on the inside called the tumbler. The sear fits in to notches in the tumbler a deep one for half cock and a shallow one for full.
There is a c shaped piece over the tumbler. It holds everting from wabeling called the bridle.
It should have three screws that hold it tight. If those are too tight it can bind the tumbler. That could be your problem.
If the sear spring is broke it won’t hold it down and that may be broke. When your lock if off does your sear bounce.
Most locks have a v shaped sear spring. Some makers make a coil spring that’s harder to replace but rarely breaks breaks.
Try just a half turn on your bridle screws and see if that helps.
Take a picture of your lock back and post it and that may helps us give you a pointer or two.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Based on what mushka said, the problem persists after the lock is removed from the stock. This puts the problem clearly within the lock. This means something is binding the tumbler or the sear.

Tell us what you did when you removed the lock. Did you tighten any screws in the lock? I would look for surfaces in the lock that are rubbing. The screws in the C shaped bridle would be the ones I would look at first especially the bolt that goes through the bridle and the L shaped sear. Back that bolt 1/4 turn. Does that help?

Once the lock is working, remember that the lock bolts only need to be snug, not tight. Most of the threaded fasteners only need to be snug. The exception is the jaw bolt holding the flint.

Watch that You Tube Video. Learn about the parts in your lock. This should be a necessity for all of us to know.

 

[Zonie]

mushka:
The first thing to look for is the condition of the sear.
When you look at the removed lock, at the rear of the lock you will see the sear arm sticking out. This is part of the sear, the thing that keeps the lock at half cock or full cock.
There will be either a U shaped spring or a little spring loaded plunger that pushes it down. Push up on the sear arm. It should move upward against the spring pressure. When you stop pushing it upward and release it, the spring should force it down.
If the spring is broken or missing or the spring loaded plunger found on Thompson Center and Lyman guns doesn't push the rear of the sear down, that is the initial problem.

If the sear spring does seem to try to push the rear of the sear down, but it isn't successful, find the screw that the sear pivots (rotates) on. Loosen that screw with a screw driver at least one full turn. Then, try moving the sear arm. It should move freely. If it does, then tighten that screw just enough to be "snug". Snug means the screw stops freely turning + just a little bit of tightening. Done right, the sear arm should move freely.

If the sear spring is broken, then replace it. If it is the TC or Lyman plunger type, lightly oil it and see if it will operate. If it doesn't, you will have to dig deeper.

While your looking at your lock, take a good look at the "nose" or operating end of the sear.
This should be a narrow, flat blade without any chips or broken edges. If it has broken edges or the end is broken off, that is the problem and you'll need to buy another sear to fix it.

If you remove the sear, pay special attention looking for a very tiny little "fly" that is in the tumbler (the part that has the full cock and half cock notches in it and rotates when the hammer is moved). This little "fly" is important so don't lose it. (I stick it on a piece of masking tape so it doesn't get lost.)

Let us know what you find.

 

[Ricochet]

Another thing to look at and it gave me fits till I found it is the bridle screw. While cocking the lock out of the stock, note if the screw moves even a little bit. Mine was moving and would shoot fine at first but after a few shots would not stay cocked. I took it out and noticed a little rust on the shoulder. The rust was creating friction with the hole and was backing itself out more with each shot. Cleaned that up and oiled it and it stays put now. Lock works great now. I gave all of the shouldered screws a little attention after that. Just something to look at, I feel your pain!!

 

[Grenadier1758]

Well mushka, Jim Kibler must have been listening to you. He has just put a You Tube video of lock disassembly and even more importantly reassembly.



While he is using one of his latest CNC machined locks that doesn't have a fly in the tumbler all the important steps are there. I noticed that he snugs the bolts to the lock plate and explains everything in about 10 minutes.

 

[mushka]

Man oh man, I got a lot to think about and do I guess. Thanks for all the responses. Gonna watch some youtube and try and get it fixed tomorrow. A little late in the day here to start a learning project today.
Again thank you all.

 

[Zonie]

To take your lock apart to do the things I suggested, you do not have to remove the cock or hammer from the tumbler so don't bother with it.

 

[mushka]

I did spray the lock with break free and let it sit for a day. Brushed with wire brush as was residue in all areas of the lock. Wiped it out a lot do get the residue out . The inside of the lock has a lot of patina and a few small rust areas that I've tried cleaning up. Only somewhat successful.
The lock does now work properly. Will go to half cock and full cock and releas when the bar is pushed up. The breakfree probably loosened up some hidden junk under
I need to get a schematic of a Siler flintlock lock with directions on how to disassemble and reassemble. I really want to clean it up. I'll get one of those clamps for the mainspring also.

Now it works and I'm greatful for all the help.

 

[Pete G]

The best thing I have found for that is a good spray of carburettor cleaner.

 

[Boomerang]

I did spray the lock with break free and let it sit for a day. Brushed with wire brush as was residue in all areas of the lock. Wiped it out a lot do get the residue out . The inside of the lock has a lot of patina and a few small rust areas that I've tried cleaning up. Only somewhat successful.
The lock does now work properly. Will go to half cock and full cock and releas when the bar is pushed up. The breakfree probably loosened up some hidden junk under
I need to get a schematic of a Siler flintlock lock with directions on how to disassemble and reassemble. I really want to clean it up. I'll get one of those clamps for the mainspring also.

Now it works and I'm greatful for all the help.

Do you take the lock out and clean it after every time you shoot it? It might have corrosion in the pivoting points if you washed it in water and didn't get it dried and oiled good.

 

[flntlokr]

Was going to shoot my 54 cal flintlock Sunday coming up so went to rag it off and clean barrel again. Tried to put the cock on half cock and it wouldn't catch, or stay. Tried to full cock the gun, same thing. Won't half cock or cock completely. I am not a gun plumber and know less about muzzle loader parts than I do about moon rockets.
Anybody got any ideas what might the trouble be? It's a well built rifle by a good unknown builder, and uses a Siler lock I think. Even the trigger guard looks like it will be troublesome to get off. I can see one screw toward the butt but no other screws. There is a peg that the guard itself in place. Frankly I am hesitant to do much with more disassembly than taking the lock off the rifle. In the recent past I even had to ask this board how to get the lock off. Need some knowledge.

Check the inletting around the sear arm and trigger, sometimes the wood will swell, and prevent things from getting where they need to be. Look for shiny spots on the wood. In my 30 yrs. at this, that is the most common problem, so long as the lock actually works properly. Check the bridle screws as well as the sear screw; make sure they are not so tight they are binding the sear or the tumbler. If they are, you might make some very thin shims to lift the bridle up a tiny bit. All part of the fun.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I need to get a schematic of a Siler flintlock lock with directions on how to disassemble and reassemble. I really want to clean it up. I'll get one of those clamps for the mainspring also.

Now it works and I'm greatful for all the help.

I'm glad to hear that you now have your lock restored to being functional.

Here is a drawing of the internals of a Siler Flint Lock.

All that is missing in this drawing is the fly in the tumbler.

Zonie's post gives a very good set of directions of what it would take to disassemble your lock to the point that you can clean out the gunk that was causing your problems.

Jim Kibler's video gives an excellent account and demonstration of how to take your lock completely apart. His lock has all the same parts as a Siler Lock, so his video is pertinent to what you need to do.

Get gunsmith quality screwdrivers that fit your bolts and good spring vises. Disassemble the lock over a white towel and you shouldn't have any problems. You probably don't need to take the hammer off the tumbler.

If you don't like Zonie's description, then read the instructions posted by Muzzleloader Builders' Supply: http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/silerlock.html
I do recommend making a square punch to remove the tumbler from the hammer as shown in the Kibler video.

 

[Ricochet]

Another thing to look at and it gave me fits till I found it is the bridle screw. While cocking the lock out of the stock, note if the screw moves even a little bit. Mine was moving and would shoot fine at first but after a few shots would not stay cocked. I took it out and noticed a little rust on the shoulder. The rust was creating friction with the hole and was backing itself out more with each shot. Cleaned that up and oiled it and it stays put now. Lock works great now. I gave all of the shouldered screws a little attention after that. Just something to look at, I feel your pain!!

Oops, I meant to say sear screw in my post above, not bridle screw. Glad that you got it worked out!! They can be frustrating at times, but when everything works it surely is a thing of beauty and there is nothing like it imo!