Working up a 38 cal (rifle) load

[Flintandsteel]

How in the world is cryogenic treating of a barrel gonna get rid of shredded patches? This is a muzzle loading, roundball barrel. Patches are cut or burned. Neither of which is caused or cured by freezing a steel barrel.

 

[SDSmlf]

How in the world is cryogenic treating of a barrel gonna get rid of shredded patches? This is a muzzle loading, roundball barrel.

Cryogenic treatment does relieve stress in the barrel. The patches are obviously being stressed..... so if you relieve the stress in the barrel...... plus if you can’t prove it doesn’t eliminate shredded patches it must work. I personally can cite no instances where a cryogenically treated barrels shredded patches, so.....

Hard to argue against this ‘logic’.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, cut patches result from sharp edges at the muzzle of the bore, sharp edges on the rifling grooves or old, pre-lubed patches that have weakened due to the lube and old age.

Cryogenic treatment of something is done by freezing the part 350 or more degrees F below zero and then letting it slowly heat up to at least room temperature or higher. This is a stress relieving process that stabilizes the metal. It does not smooth or dull any of the edges that may be sharp so I have serious doubts that it could reduce patch cutting.

As for shredding, because cryogenic treatments don't change the surface of the bore, I think the patches will still shred until something is done to either dull the sharp edges or better quality patches are used.

Patches that are burned thru are usually due to the patch being too thin for the ball/patch combination or from using a hot burning powder like 777.

 

[nchawkeye]

Can you show us a pictures of the patches after firing?? Put a tarp down in from of the muzzle to catch them after firing...Also, what I like to do is take about a 12 inch long piece of pillow ticking, load the ball about an inch down the bore, pull it out, then you can see if you are cutting patches...I would also go down to 30 gas FFF as a load, I use that in my .40 for squirrel hunting it's plenty...

 

[smoothshooter]

it may not be the load or the powder or the patch. ive solved many a problem like yours by having the barrel cryo treated with the pipes on it so they are stress relived and the harmonics are in tune with each other. do that at just a little over 100 dollars at the cryo co. of your choise and your problems will end. it workeds every time for me. will be easier to load also and more easy to clean.

I very rarely use the word " inpossible ", but it IMPOSSIBLE for cryo-treatment of a barrel to have even the slightest effect on cut patches, since it does not change anything dimensionally, and has absolutely no effect on surface finishes.

It CAN, in some instances, improve accuracy in a barrel because of stress-relieving, but that is about it as far as firearms are concerned.

 

[smoothshooter]

I'm still working up a load for my 38 cal Lehigh (48" FCI barrel). I started at 40 gr, FFFg, and have been going up by 5 gr at a time. So far I'm up to 50 gr FFFg and the .015" patches are still being shredded. .375" 83 gr. ball. RB rifling 1:48" ROT. FCI barrels are milled about .001"-.002" tighter at the crown than they are at the breech, so they're a bit tight to get started, even with a short starter. I tried using .018" patches ONE time, and I had to use a hammer all the way down the bore to get it in. 10 shot groups @ 25 yards (benched and sand bagged) are running 2 1/2"-3 1/4", which I think is too big,

What have you guys found to be your optimal RB loads in this, or calibers close to it (36 or 40)? I'm thinking that with a lighter ball it takes a greater powder charge to upset the ball (less mass) to get it to obdurate in to the rifling.

Thoughts?

Thicker patch with plenty of lube.
Smaller ball.

Or send to Bobby Hoyt to open the bore up very slightly.
The guy performs magic on gun barrels on a daily basis.
Things that are thought of by even experienced and highly-skilled shooters to be beyond the realm of possibility.

I am perfectly serious about this.

Relieving the bore diameter on your barrel ( perfectly ) is something he can almost do in his sleep.

 

[smoothshooter]

I never thought or heard about that advantage of a shorter barrel but it sounds sensible to me. Thanks!

The same logic applies to suppository guns as well.

 

[45man]

Only two things cut patches. Sharp muzzle crown or gas leakage. Even sharp rifling can be over come and will smooth with shooting.
A taper bored barrel is not good when fed from the muzzle and is only good on a cartridge rifle.
If rifling is cutting the patch, put some real fine Scotch Brite on a rod and scrub it some. You can make a lead lap and a fine abrasive to fix too.
You can check the muzzle by using a large hunk of patch, start the ball and using the material, pull the ball back out. If sharp I silver solder a ball bearing the right size on a rod and using abrasive by hand to lap the crown until you just break the grooves, make sure sharp is gone with no burrs.
There are things never tossed out, any good ball bearings broken out of the race and springs. I save every good bolt, nut, wood and metal screw too.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Instead of going into a rant about how a cryogenic treated barrel has never cut patches, please explain to me how freezing a piece of steel is going to smooth out the sharp edges that are cutting patches, OR how it will fix a patch that's too thin.
Been building these things for almost 30 years, and kinda understand how they work. BUT, I will acquiesce if you can explain that for me.

 

[Redstick Lee]

Grimord is onto it ! Lapping a bore used to be common practice.......even "fire lapping"
whatever happened to this practice?

I do this to my BP rifles and my patches could be re-used for 3-4 shots.

 

[SDSmlf]

Cryogenic treatment does relieve stress in the barrel. The patches are obviously being stressed..... so if you relieve the stress in the barrel...... plus if you can’t prove it doesn’t eliminate shredded patches it must work. I personally can cite no instances where a cryogenically treated barrels shredded patches, so.....

Hard to argue against this ‘logic’.

Obviously my sarcasm was lost in the translation. I find in difficult to believe that some would actually believe that cryogenic treatment of an essentially dead piece of 12L14 steel would change the bore’s impact on a round ball patch. Apologies for my indiscretion.

Let’s discuss and eliminate patch thickness, patch material, lubricants, rough muzzles, rifling burrs and excessive powder charges for example before going down any cryogenic barrel treatment rabbit hole.

 

[jbwilliams3]

I wouldn’t disparage FCI barrels in any way – too good a reputation and Charles Burton seems like a man who will do what it takes to get something right. However, I have a similar experience with a .54 FCI barrel. I’m quite sure it’s not the crown since the muzzle is coned. My patches are shredded regardless of lube or patch size. I recently used THICK denim and the patches still show seven small cuts whether using mink oil or spit and a light powder charge. I’ve tried running scotch bright down the bore – but I wouldn’t think this would be a problem with round bottom rifling. Maybe it needs an over the powder wad. I’ve done that in the past with other guns but never kept it up because I saw no discernible difference in accuracy.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The patches I'm using are the TotW pre-cut linen dry patches. Pretty sure those are ok. The balls are Hornady .375" swaged lead ones. Not sure if there is a commercially made .370" ball out there to experiment with, but I'm certainly game to try if I can find one.

This has been a puzzling thread. Sometimes it is hard to fix problems from the keyboard. This is a time when another experienced ml shooter needs to handle your rifle and get a sense of what the issue is that is causing your problems. But, from my keyboard I'll take another stab at possible causes. From your statement above I have a couple thoughts (which my be wuthluss ). Those commercial patches might be weak material. I suggest you try some washed and lubed pillow ticking. And, spend the bucks to get a Jeff Tanner .370" rb mould. It will problably work. Besides, you aren't a real ml'er until you have a dozen or so unused moulds sitting on the shelf in yer shop. This is a game of trying and trying again. No avocation is cheap. Besides, yer heirs can sell yer stuff for a penny on the dollar after ye kick. Good luck.

 

[Rat]

I wouldn’t disparage FCI barrels in any way – too good a reputation and Charles Burton seems like a man who will do what it takes to get something right. However, I have a similar experience with a .54 FCI barrel. I’m quite sure it’s not the crown since the muzzle is coned. My patches are shredded regardless of lube or patch size. I recently used THICK denim and the patches still show seven small cuts whether using mink oil or spit and a light powder charge. I’ve tried running scotch bright down the bore – but I wouldn’t think this would be a problem with round bottom rifling. Maybe it needs an over the powder wad. I’ve done that in the past with other guns but never kept it up because I saw no discernible difference in accuracy.

I'll say again, my Jeager will burn/shred patches with one wonder wad under the ball, (my charge is 110 grains of ffg Swiss) two wads and they come out perfect. So in my rifle, it's certainly a matter of gas cutting. Judging by the flame and fire coming out the muzzle, it's not much of a mystery.

If I ever get any spare time soon, I'm looking forward to playing with a wax biscuit over the powder, and a wonder wad over that. When I refer to Wonder Wads, really I'm talking about any lubed felt wad. My rifle has round bottom rifling.

 

[rich pierce]

I generally lap new barrels that have cut rifling. I’ve not yet shot a Rice barrel. May not need it. Ed Rayl’s barrels for sure need it and it looks to me like I will lap the Colerain and FCI barrels I have on hand as I get them into guns. Saves powder and aggravation. I pour a lead lap. Thankfully I have a couple dozen unfinished 4’ long hickory ram rods around. Really makes loading smooth also.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I’ve not yet shot a Rice barrel. May not need it.

The Rice barrel on my new Little Fella rifle loads and shoots smooth and beautifully. No shredding or other problems other than the nut behind the trigger is still kinda wonky.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Rifleman 1776; now that was funny! And, sadly enough, more true than not. The hugging got to be too much to bear yesterday, so I took it to the range for about 25 shots, or about 1 1/2 hours. I dropped the charge all the way down to about 17 grains and the groups tightened up a whole bunch, but all my shooting was done from the offhand position. It's sure going to take a long time to go through powder with those charges! When I'm by myself I'm not even sure I need hearing protection with the muzzle that far away

Interestingly, my general point of impact varies L-R depending on the charge too. By chance, the inside of my powder measure is .43" diameter, and that gives me a powder depth of about .330", which is enough to cover the entire TH liner. Unfortunately there were too many leaves in front of the line for me to be able to find any of the patches, but the tightened groups would seem to say things are in a better place now.

The barrel also now has about 100 or so shots through it as well, which may indeed be contributing to it starting to settle in.

 

[Rifleman1776]

my general point of impact varies L-R depending on the charge

Yep. Pressures too low. Keep those pressures up to group consistently. My gut is still telling me something around 30 gr. will work for you. Read Dutch's book. Wish more experienced shooters would chime in here. I have no experience with a choke bored rifle. There are factors involved I cannot speak to.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Indeed those charges may. Figuring out the right load is part of the fun of ML'ers. RB rifling I'm told is substantially more finicky than square bottom in finding just the right load. But, pretty much everything about flint guns is more finicky, so where's the big news there?

 

[32 ballard xl]

Only two things cut patches. Sharp muzzle crown or gas leakage. Even sharp rifling can be over come and will smooth with shooting.
A taper bored barrel is not good when fed from the muzzle and is only good on a cartridge rifle.
If rifling is cutting the patch, put some real fine Scotch Brite on a rod and scrub it some. You can make a lead lap and a fine abrasive to fix too.
You can check the muzzle by using a large hunk of patch, start the ball and using the material, pull the ball back out. If sharp I silver solder a ball bearing the right size on a rod and using abrasive by hand to lap the crown until you just break the grooves, make sure sharp is gone with no burrs.
There are things never tossed out, any good ball bearings broken out of the race and springs. I save every good bolt, nut, wood and metal screw too.

I'm sure you are right. Harry Pope taper bored all of his muzzleloading barrels, and he didn't know that they couldn't shoot.