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working up load for Rem 58

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First off, I should state that my (revolver) shooting sucks!! I've been using wax pills over the powder for a while, and noticed that on occasion the wax was left stuck to the target. It finally seeped into what passes for my brain that if the pills are sticking to the balls then there's a very good chance that they're affecting the trajectory.

So I'm about to follow Richard's method and use filler over the powder and the pills over the ball. It may help with my shooting, but on the other hand it could simply be that I'm a lousy shot!
 
There are no lousy pistol shots, just those who need to work a bit more on their shooting.

I asked one of the better shooters where can I go to learn about pistol shooting, he said get the book, "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury" by Gil Hebard.

The book has helped me improve my shooting.

Each person shoots to a different level. Some are just happy the thing went off, some are can killers and others are target shooters.

As long as you are having fun, that is what is important.

There are no secrets in pistol shooting, it's all mental along with some mentoring from good shooters.
 
It is not unusual for percussion revolvers to have had a tapered reamer run into the chambers to different depths. That means the same volume of powder fills the chambers to different depths. And, the same seating depth produces projectiles that are swaged to different diameters.

Just another little something worth looking at while you're scratching your head and asking yourself what in blue blazes is the matter with that thang?!
 
All good info here!

Since I did so well (earned the NRA Distinguished Expert) with the pre-lubed wonder-wads, I decided to stick with them. I shoot all year round and in a stiff wind, or from under a pop-up while it's raining from time-to-time. Pouring C.O.W. isn't easy out in the open. So for me it's the wads. And I can manipulate how much lube the wads produce by either leaving them alone, drying them out or schmeering more lube onto them as weather conditions dictate. Often I find used wads about 1/2 the way to the 25 yard target, and that's with a 52 grain charge of 3Fg Goex in the Colt Walker. Lighter charges (my 27 grain charge for '58 Remmys) sometimes leave the well-lubed wads in such a nice condition you'd think to shoot them a second time, lol!

I use a custom pistol loading stand built by the League Chairman. It holds my Walker & every other revolver I own. Even has a flip-down shelf on hinges to hold the shorter Sheriff's Model & Baby Dragoons. My loading procedure is to load a single chamber at a time (powder, lubed wad, then .454 ball) and leave the rammer in the chamber just loaded to act as a "brake" so the cylinder can't rotate while you load the next chamber. Seems to work quite well, especially in bad weather. As for consistent seating depth being one of the keys to superior accuracy on this we both agree whole-heartedly! I also find that by really leaning on the Walker's loading lever I'm making chamber-filling wad-cutters out of the soft lead balls. Holes of Walker-fired balls cut perfect circles due to the pressure-forming in the chamber walls. This same process of seating under pressure also compacts the properly measured powder charges to a uniform "compaction" which further ensures universal seating depth.

Most '58 Remmy cylinder's chambers will hold 35 grains of 3Fg Goex, a lubed wad & a .454 ball with enough room to spare so the cylinder can rotate. This is a poor choice as a target load in every gun I own except for the '58 Remmy Stainless Buffalo with 12" barrel. That gun LOVES being filled-up & has won numerous competitions & novelty shoots. My 8" tubed '58 Remmy likes the 27 grain charge, the wad & ball. That combo gets compacted at the end of the loading lever's stroke before the lever comes into contact with frame AND gets the balls somewhat near the chamber mouths.

As you can see we do things a bit differently but arrive at the same outcome. I rather enjoyed reading what you wrote about "some are glad the thing went-off, some wanna plink cans & some wanna punch holes in paper". Couldn't agree more. And I'll add a fourth: Some wanna shoot the most accurate charge using the most powder the gun will allow, so with every ignition they are practicing with their hunting charge. I'm in the fourth category.

Take care & be well!

Dave
 
Richard Eames said:
Not sure how ball diameter could affect velocity.

Maybe Alan will help, he has more experience than I do.

I'm just at Noob at C&B but I do reload for my pistols and rifles. One thing I thought about is with say a .457 ball, you shave more lead ring off and then the ball will have a longer flat spot around the circumference. I would expect there to be more ball in contact with the rifling and thus change "something" with the way it acts in the barrel with how soon it leaves the barrel,how much powder is burnt and such.
I would expect it to act differently than a .451 ball that slices a tiny ring. I can now see how Chamber diameter and bore characteristics for Lands and groove diameters comes into play. Interesting suggestions.
I am not trying to be a match shooter, but I'd like the pistol to be more accurate than my shooting so I can work on my shooting. I'd be happy with 5 shots all in the black at a 3" circle @ 25 feet offhand
 
smokin .50 said:
I use a custom pistol loading stand built by the League Chairman. It holds my Walker & every other revolver I own. Even has a flip-down shelf on hinges to hold the shorter Sheriff's Model & Baby Dragoons.



Picture please.



William Alexander
 
My Pietta 5.5" Remington '58 seems to do best with 30 grns of 3F Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford, though I've only tried 20, 25 and 35 grns to compare it to and only using a wad as filler.

30 grns was the best followed by 35 and then 25, which was rather close to the group size of the 35 grn charge. These with both my 170 grn and 195 grn WFN conicals. The 170 is .400" long and the 195 is .460" long.
 
Heres one that i am making. I have only turned a 44cal loading stem so far. It loads my walker and Armies real well. I still have to turn 36 and 31cal seating stems. I am going to put some aluminum on the bed to protect the cylinders. I got the idea from pics on the internet.
 
Melnic: 25 FEET? Are you saying 8 yards? At 25 YARDS and shooting off a rest most (not all, MOST) of your shots should be going into ABOUT a 2 1/2" group. I think you might be over thinking some of your loading procedure. If you are reloading modern pistol ammo I'm going to assume you are a pretty good pistol shot.
Ball diameter, you can do the shaved ring or if the chamber is slightly tapered- the swaged fit. I personally like the swaged fit.
Driving band length- I don't think a slight ring of lead off the ball makes much difference. Years ago I started with balls that had a nib left from the sprue. Today's perfectly round balls- when I first started using them I saw an improvement in accuracy.
Ball close to the end of the cylinder. Everyone pretty much knows about that. I actually filed a fine line on the revolver's ram to seat all balls the same depth. I don't use a stand.
Filler's, grease, wads. I like pre-lubed wads. For me I get better accuracy. I use powder, wad, ball- that's it. No filler. The lack of a filler means I must use more powder.
Powder charge. I almost hate to bring this up but IMHO SOME guns might do best with heavier charges of powder. Not maximum, just heavier. The problem with recommending the heavy charges is that some folks think a person is trying to be "more manly" by using a heavy charge. That's not it, the accuracy is sometimes better because the heavy charge produces more velocity that might just work better with a particular combination of ball, bore twist, etc. IMHO the difference in recoil might be a little more but the gun just kicks up- what's the big deal?
So....1. Accurately measure the powder load. 2. Use a pre-lubed wad, 3. Seat all balls the same depth; and, shoot off bags just to figure out the most accurate load, then shoot off hand.
Hopefully that might get the groups down to that 2- 2 1/2" at 25 yard goal.
 
Looks interesting.

The wooden stand I use holds the entire revolver muzzle-up. Your cylinder loader looks heavy-duty! Thanks for sharing!

Dave
 
I'm a believer that there is no such thing as over thinking. Just things that are significant and those that are not. I'm just not used to C&B just yet. I"m decent with pistols, not a Bullseye shooter but I can hold my own. Here are 2 loads from today. First was 22grn, 1 wad and a lube pill. and 2nd was 22grn, 2 wads and no lube (ran out of the lube pills from the kit). .457 ball.
I was not that consistant with my POA on the 2nd group, but you can see with both groups, a couple high fliers. these 2 were at 8-10 yards.In the first pic top right hole is actualy a wad stuck in the paper. Not sure if there was a hole for a ball there or if it was just the wad. I think I just have to get used to the trigger and the shooting. 3rd pic is a 1911 @ 25 yards one hand offhand. @ 8 yards w/ 2 hands I can get them all in the black easily. Maybe I should shoot a cylinder one hand offhand just to see what happens.
B98F6F42-6B7C-4C16-B3E6-85067CA874F8_zpszdrozsik.jpg

D7C06D17-2A6D-4DC8-ABF7-3AD9C8C1E7D0_zpsra4kgfl7.jpg

F2DA55D8-EE27-4A79-B443-0D1560361FA9_zpsmmabqooh.jpg
 
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Melnic,

In your first pic are there 4 in the one group and then two high? same pattern but a larger group in the second?

If it were me, I'd repeat that first load for a couple of cylinders full, but keep track of which shot came from which chamber. It is most likely that you pulled the two high shots, but possible that there are differences in the chambers.

Alan
 
M: what I meant by overthinking is this: as a reloader myself I do the whole bit, weighing each powder charge, bullets, miking oal, etc. etc. so I figured on a muzzle loader or cap and ball revolver I would get better accuracy doing the same thing. I did make 100 little paper tubes with caps and I do weigh black powder charges and keep the loads in these paper tubes. That way I don't get into the "loading from a flask" issue at a range and I am confident all the powder charges are the same.
In any event about 2 years ago Muzzle Blasts magazine ran a series of monthly articles on how the top winners at Friednship loaded and shot. I was doing more than they were! Most just used a measure with a cut off top, etc. So, I figured I was overdoing things if the best shooters out there were not as precise as I was trying to be.
I know the 1911, in accurized form is one of the most accurate of all handguns but IMHO a percussion revolver with a long barrel is highly accurate, as good as 90% of most of the modern guns. Try the heavier charges, see how they work.
If the gun still seems inaccurate then I guess you could look at the gun, if it is spitting lead, etc. but that would be an unusual situation. Before doing that I think I'd see if I could find a local who shoots percussion revolvers well and have him shoot the gun- just in case your hand isn't suitable for the grip or there is something about the revolver that just doesn't suit you. On the "improvements" I think some guys lengthen the forcing cone a little and on some revolvers it improves things and on others it makes no difference. In any event, at 25 yards, my personal experience is that percussion guns are equal to modern guns. Once you try longer ranges the round ball starts to drop in velocity and then things change but up to 25 yards percussion ought to equal modern guns in accuracy.
In thinking over my own journey in percussion revolvers. Started with small charges and filler and ball seated deep and Crisco over the end. Some guy asked my why I was shooting "pip squeak" charges. Upped the powder, forgot about the filler and things improved. A little later someone told me about seating the balls as little into the chambers as possible, maybe 1/16" to 1/8". You can't have air voids so at that point I either had to use more powder, a filler, or a thick wad. I went with the thick wad, prelubed. Once again, things improved. I've thought about the forcing cone job but right now if I use a rest I'm getting the mentioned 2 1/2" groups at 25 yards which is about as good as most of my modern (DA revolvers, semi-autos) pistols so I am more or less satisfied. I'm pretty certain the competitive percussion shooters get far better accuracy than I'm currently getting.
 
Good suggestions too. I'll also try a heavier load sometime in the comming weeks.
Thx.
yup, I ordered the plastic tubes, just cause I think it might be quicker or at least less mess. Dunno, But for $10 I'll try it :)
 
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